| KING POO |
| What do you think ? |
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| RCHEVELLE71 |
Sounds good to me Poo,
How about another shot at P-6 for us single outboard guys?? with fuel prices, I am sure more people will be going my way soon, in the 20-24' range with a single egg beater :D |
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| Dry Sump |
quote:
Originally posted by KING POO
What do you think ?
A sponsored race class ... for " local boater gear heads "across the country ,not just florida .
Low entry fee's . Safety gear for rent at each event .
( mandatory ).
A support trailer , local radio & newspaper coverage 30 day's in advance .
A reasonable purse .
Kilo run's at EVERY site for bragging rights in youre town .
??? ( DRY SUMP this is a positive post please do not reply )
I think P class should be put on by the local clubs and the National races should be for Pro series boats, You only run them together at certain races were a local club would be willing to put the race on |
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| RumRunner |
| Sounds interesting. Why not use P Class boats at National meets like NHRA uses their Sportsman racers as fill in. Have the P class run on Saturday, then run your "Pro" series boats on Sunday. |
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| Sump |
quote:
Originally posted by RumRunner
Sounds interesting. Why not use P Class boats at National meets like NHRA uses their Sportsman racers as fill in. Have the P class run on Saturday, then run your "Pro" series boats on Sunday.
That is how it was done when we had 60 - 90 boats show up. It was 2 days of great entertanment. With 30 boats its hard to justify the Saturday expense with safety, helicopter and volenteers. Some short sighted people never gave this any thought when the decided to split the sport ... again. Now promoters are doing speed runs on Saturday to replace the Saturday races. Give it time. This always comes full circle. There will be Saturday racing again. :sun2: |
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| RumRunner |
quote:
Originally posted by Sump
That is how it was done when we had 60 - 90 boats show up. It was 2 days of great entertanment. With 30 boats its hard to justify the Saturday expense with safety, helicopter and volenteers. Some short sighted people never gave this any thought when the decided to split the sport ... again. Now promoters are doing speed runs on Saturday to replace the Saturday races. Give it time. This always comes full circle. There will be Saturday racing again. :sun2:
Agreed, Offshore Racing was actually going in the right direction a few years ago, before egos got in the way!
There are a few things that will need to happen to help the casual fan on shore:
• The P class Boats need to be changed to Letters (A-E) I realize that we will go back to some class names from the past, but they are no longer around, and it’s too hard for fans to figure out what class a boat is in.
• Get local radio stations or someone to setup speakers on the beach so they can hear what’s going on.
• If you’re going to have former racers announcing (which is great thing, since they can bring something extra to the casual fan) they need to actually be journalists. Nothing more frustrating that hearing the call be so far from accurate.
• Have the “Pro” series boats qualify for Sunday’s starting position on Saturday. This can be done with either a lap of the actual race course (the preferred way, since the teams will get a chance to see the actual course) or during a kilo.
• Start of the race…. This needs to be set up much more consistently. Some races the formation laps count, some don’t, and the start finish starting point varies. The boats should start in a 2x2 formation, the formation laps should not count, and the green should be thrown as the boats come out of the corner prior to the start finish line in front of the beach!
• Get the local boat dealers involved with the race. These don’t have to be go-fast boats, since the majority of people on the beach can’t afford the high priced speed boats, but may be able to afford a bass boat or bayliner.
• All “Pro” teams need to have hero cards
• There needs to be an organization run, apparel trailer with something from each of the teams, as well as the organization. You can get a t-shirt guy to cut a group rate to the guys that do not have their own apparel.
• The sanctioning body needs to make it worth while for the teams to attend more of the “National” races. Maybe a package rate if the teams signed up for all of the races? It is really bad to see a bunch of teams at one venue, then not showing up at the next.
But until we get back to 1 sanctioning body this can’t happen!
Having regional groups is not a bad thing. They can be used for regional qualifier races, and help organize the national meets when they are in the area. |
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| shane b |
| Hate to jump in here but I think the name P class is boring I like the name OUTLAW class which is used in ALL forms of motersports example dirt track, drag racing ..... |
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| RumRunner |
Shane,
You could do Outlaw, or Bracket Classes. Since the classes are broken down into speed brackets. |
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| RumRunner |
| OK, bigger question, who would setup, and run "Divisional" races? |
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| Flashwave |
quote:
Originally posted by RumRunner
OK, bigger question, who would setup, and run "Divisional" races?
Divisional races are already being run all over the counry. SE Division, POPRA, OPA. Two of these divisions run the same classes as the National series. OPA does their own thing. |
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| RumRunner |
quote:
Originally posted by Flashwave
Divisional races are already being run all over the counry. SE Division, POPRA, OPA. Two of these divisions run the same classes as the National series. OPA does their own thing.
I realize that, I was referring to King Poo's question. Having a Divisional Level of a National Series. Same rules from race to race, and place to place. Like the NASCAR weekly Series, or NHRA divisional series.
They have classes that are the same from coast to coast that a racer could go to different places if they wanted to. |
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| Flashwave |
I get the drift of what you and POO are saying. The concept of the divisionals doing their thing and the national series doing theirs. There is one issue with this. There are not enough race boats to make this cost effective.
Yes, there are people out there trying to push the grand plan of a National Series that is all canopied boats. They want to run offshore racing. Their thought is divisional racers would work their way up to the national ranks. Fact is the average racer or team last about 3 years in Offshore Racing then moves on. Would be racers who have a little more money don't want to race the divisional races. They prefer to purchase a Super Cat with no experience and race with the biggest classes. With low boat counts, the sanctioning bodies are more than happy to let this happen. No one has gotten killed doing this, so why not? So much for progression through the ranks.
The sanctioning organizations "national series" really is just a group of races like the divisional series. The so-called national series only attracts about 50% of their registered fleet to all the races. Add a race or 2 in California and that percentage would drop even further. You couldn't get away with this if you had a major sponsor. (Excuse me Procter and Gamble, we won't be running the Tide boat this weekend.) You see both sanctioning bodies are basically East Coast divisions.
Offshore racing is a hobby for people with some disposable income. These people are not looking for nor do they want the financial discipline inspired and required by a major sponsor.
I would like to see all teams race were ever they want with any division. The national champions would be crowned based on total divisional points achieved throughout the year. (This is no different than the way it is today in the so called national series. Those who attend the most races for the most part become champions. Those teams who are in the championship hunt at the end of the season tend to run the final races.) Each year a different division would host the Worlds. Good for racers, good for the divisions and everyone is treated the same.
The key to all of this working is one sanctioning body and one set of rules and classes. Maybe a little bit of what APBA Detroit was doing a few years back was working considering the turnover in this hobby. |
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| shane b |
quote:
Originally posted by Flashwave
Offshore racing is a hobby for people with some disposable income. These people are not looking for nor do they want the financial discipline inspired and required by a major sponsor.
.
I DO I DO
I would have to agree though most if not all of the big boys ( Super Cat/ Cat light) would rather pay for it out of pocket for the ease of not having to please there sponsors |
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| shane b |
| OK how about this you Form 3-4 strong divisional series lets say west coast(POPRA), North East/ Great Lakes (OPA?GLSCS)and a South East series. Now you Form a National series that would race with these divisional groups at there sites, the National and Divisional series would run there own races sorta like APBA did in the Mike A days were the hosting divisional club races on Sat and the National club races on Sunday. It would also be nice to see some of the LARGE poker Runs being run in conjunction with the races were now maybe you run the Poker run on Sat and ALL the racers race on Sun? |
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| Flashwave |
| Sorry man. Your an old guy. No sponsor wants an old guy. Thats means I'm screwed too. Find an 18-22 year old that can talk and race. That's what a major sponsor wants. This is one reason Offshore racing is a hobby. Be happy being an owner/racer. |
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| shane b |
| Dam Jim Im not old Im still in my prime :D |
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| Flashwave |
quote:
Originally posted by shane b
OK how about this you Form 3-4 strong divisional series lets say west coast(POPRA), North East/ Great Lakes (OPA?GLSCS)and a South East series. Now you Form a National series that would race with these divisional groups at there sites, the National and Divisional series would run there own races sorta like APBA did in the Mike A days were the hosting divisional club races on Sat and the National club races on Sunday. It would also be nice to see some of the LARGE poker Runs being run in conjunction with the races were now maybe you run the Poker run on Sat and ALL the racers race on Sun?
This is a hobby sport. There really is no place for a not for profit "national" series. As a hobby, people will come and go as they please. They will invest whatever they see fit. They will race when and were they want as they do today.
The so called pro series never ran divisional races on Saturday. The format was P-classes and Factory Classes on Saturday and Super Series classes on Sunday. The P classes never were considered divisioinal classes. As a hobby sport all classes should be treated the same.
Now if you want to really want to have a Pro Series, then you're back to the Alweiss days. If someone wants a Pro series, then find a few million dollars to be invested for profit and start one. Require teams to put up big membership fees. Write the rules so if your team misses a race there is a $100,000 fine. A national pro series requires strict rules. Quit mid season and the santioning body keeps your $500,000 deposit. Blow your mouth off on TV and your out two races and a $100,000 fine. Until the downside hurts, there will be no upside a major sponsor can count on. Its like any business. you pay first in hopes of a return later. |
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| Flashwave |
quote:
Originally posted by shane b
Dam Jim Im not old Im still in my prime :D
I'll take you word on this. :D |
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| RumRunner |
I agree with everything posted here, but if offshore racing wants to ever become more than “Club Racing for some Rich guys” there are changes that will have to be made.
First there needs to be ONE National Sanctioning body to develop rules, classes, marketing etc. There is not enough interest from fans, or racers to support multiple sanctioning bodies. I believe the “Not for profit” Racers who left do to MA need to come back. That being said I do believe they should be able to have their own voice as in many other forms of motor sports. PRO, and other drivers groups allow the racers from different classes to have a uniform voice.
Once you have national organization you need to come up with classes. You’ll have “Pro” classes (or National Touring) and then regional classes. This would break down to the Super Series classes as they were: SuperCat, SCL, SuperVee, SVL, SuperStock-Outboard. These would all be Canopied classes, and then you’d have Manufactures 1 & 2 or Factory 1 & 2 whatever you want to call it. F1 & F2 would be the premier Open cockpit classes, and the best place for the boat manufactures to highlight their hulls. Now you’ll have your Local classes. Your “Outlaw” or “Bracket” Classes broken down by speed as they are now. I would change them from P1 through P5 to A-E + Single Outboard. These guys would be the fill in show (Saturday Race) at a National Meet, and would be the show at a local race. Depending on the location, you might have some of the “Pro” racers come in to the local races to use it as a test for one of the National Meets. Essentially the way things were running 3 or 4 years ago with the dissention.
There are some changes that would need to happen. You would need a board to make decisions. The racers (per group) would have a vote, the sponsors would have a vote, the technical director would get a vote, the national sanctioning body (board) would get a vote, and then you’d have someone designated to vote as a tie breaker only if needed. This person would be approved or voted in for a period of time by both sides. Now neither side is running the rust so to speak. Now get the local boat builders, and dealers involved with the races. Have a mini (or big even) boat show at each race. Most people can’t afford to spend a couple hundred grand on performance boat, but they can spend 20 to 50 on a cruiser. They still like racing, so this will bring them to the races, and get them involved.
The bigger question is how to get the guys off the side lines that have a performance boat? I would think you could involve a poker run at the divisional races, and possibly kilo runs. First there would more people involved to help cover the cost of safety. Two more boats, so more spectators will come. Three it will give guys with performance boats a taste of being at the races without having to buy a dedicated race boat. Now one of three things will happen. 1) They get hooked, buy a race boat and go racing. 2) They like it, but don’t want to buy a race boat, but they’ll come back and do this again. 3) Get pissed off, and never come back! I don’t know anybody who’s ever gone to the races, and came back with a bad impression of anything other than politics.
So where do we go from here? |
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| shane b |
| Doug I agree 110% on everything you just posted except giving the Sponsors a vote, I know you could be 1 of those sponsors (Barry Grant) but I believe here is part of the problem with Offshore racing. 1 Oss has Mercury, who wants to controll the whole scene. 2 SBI has Fountain enough said |
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| FLASHER |
quote:
Originally posted by shane b
Doug I agree 110% on everything you just posted except giving the Sponsors a vote, I know you could be 1 of those sponsors (Barry Grant) but I believe here is part of the problem with Offshore racing. 1 Oss has Mercury, who wants to controll the whole scene. 2 SBI has Fountain enough said
Funny, when APBA /LLC had GM, all other sponsors were welcome . Try that elsewhere.
( You have an OL ? hell no you cant race here! )
( you have sterling's ? Youre DQ,D !) etc. |
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| Flashwave |
The premise of Offshore Racing becoming more than a rich guys sport just is not going to happen. Call it a high end hobby. We should accept it for what it is , unify it under APBA Detroit and have a great sport. Directors and representatives still get elected. You can still have sponsors, prize money, TV and still have fun when you want. Promoters and clubs will have their race sites year after year. Each division shares the cost and has a say on how the money is spent by the organization.
Lets face it. The only reason anyone would want a Pro series in a hobby sport is so they can run the show. The only reason to run the show is because it is financially rewarding or ... to stroke an ego.
Like all sports, teams will do what they can when they can and hopefully have a good time doing it. |
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| shane b |
quote:
Originally posted by Flashwave
Lets face it. The only reason anyone would want a Pro series in a hobby sport is so they can run the show. The only reason to run the show is because it is financially rewarding or ... to stroke an ego.
.
I disagree I would like to see a Pro series that spans the US not just Florida. I enjoy going to different places all over the country and racing. |
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| shane b |
quote:
Originally posted by Flashwave
The so called pro series never ran divisional races on Saturday. The format was P-classes and Factory Classes on Saturday and Super Series classes on Sunday. The P classes never were considered divisioinal classes. As a hobby sport all classes should be treated the same.
Jim your right I was just trying to put things in perspective as you could run the P class races on Sat which would be put on by the Divisional club and run the canopied boats on Sunday run by the Pro series. Both the so called Pro series and Divisional groups could help each other out and run joint races at the same venue on the same weekend, this giving the fans a ton of boats at an event and 2 full days of racing. I think it is stupid to run Pro series races at there own event because the Divisional have some GREAT race sites and by combining the 2 at some of the race events would be beneficial to all involved. |
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| RumRunner |
Shane,
I can understand your point of view, but here's where I'm coming from: (based upon the work we do with other sanctioning bodies)
1) It would promote more manufacture wanting to become involved since they would have to be involved to vote.
2) With a multi vote system no one could ram something through just for their own company or products.
3) Since many manufactures deal with many different sanctioning bodies, and forms of racing they can bring a different perspective than that of a racer trying to get what they want, or an offical trying to get what they want.
4) It could actually save money, if the manufacture has a way to solve a specific need, or issue using exsisting items rather than having something different built.
5) The groups could work together to help with the entire program. We worked with an oval track sanctioning body on their engine rules. They had three classes, and the lower end classes were spending more time, and money in tech than the high dollar class while racing for a lot less. We were able to make some suggestions that wound up saving the racers money, and time, eliminated a lot of gray area, and help us sell more product. I was actually able to sell a better quality product, for less money given the rules changes.
Not saying it's perfect, but think it would work.
What are your reasons, and suggestions?
I agree with your statements, from my understanding the Merc deal in the past was made to prevent the "if you don't do this we'll leave" crap!
The first thing is you have to have parity within the rules, to make sure everyone using equal equipment has a fair chance to win.
I don't see any reason to prevent change unless it can lead to unfair competition. |
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| Flashwave |
quote:
Originally posted by shane b
I disagree I would like to see a Pro series that spans the US not just Florida. I enjoy going to different places all over the country and racing.
Nothing would stop a team from traveling from race site to race site anywhere in the country. You don't need a pro series to accomplish this. Under the divisional concept all races are equal. Teams can race when and were they want. If AMF wanted to spend 36 weeks on the road they could. Its possible a very few teams would run the entire Offshore Series. No matter how many races you run though, you go to the next race at the same level as all the other competitors. This is a hobby sport.
View it this way if you like. The entire country is the pro series. Offshore racing runs under the APBA Detroit umbrella for common rules and unity in organization. The local people in the divisions manage the promoters, venues and the operations as they do today. There would be more coordinated racing across the country. The "them and us" is gone which might inspire more people to come and participate. |
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| KING POO |
| civilized discussion. Thank you . |
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| Flashwave |
Your right POO a civilized discussion. You see what happens over on OSO. Read this thread. .
More BS
You see it starts out with "Not trying to start anything here, but". You know this is a setup for a whole lot of BS. By post 5 the guy who started the thread is starting to make his point which is in fact the real reason he started this thread. It's not like we don't know the players over there. Watch this thread go south. |
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| shane b |
| The sad part is once again it is from a person with NO invested interest in offshore racing except to make the other organizations look bad |
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| RumRunner |
OK Poo,
Not trying to start anything here (had to say it)
What would it take to get you (and by this I mean all the people like you that love offshore racing, but don't/won't race) to go racing? |
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| KING POO |
| an organizationI can depend on . |
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| Flashwave |
| Well someone got a handle on the OSO thread and deleted it. I'm sure you guys saw how fast it went to the shitter. :slam: |
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| RumRunner |
| Yup! The problem is you've got a bunch of guys bitching, but not offering ANY (even bad) suggestions. |
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| Throttle Up |
So then be a part of the solution and don't allow yourself to be a part of the problem.
Julie
Service Vender |
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| RumRunner |
I don't think Julie realized everyone in This Thread has been trying to be positive.
Poo,
Back to my question. I realize the direction you're coming from as a past/possibly current racer, but how do you get the guy to come out, and race P who has never been to a race before let alone actually raced? |
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| FLASHER |
I have no basis for this , but I think that speed run's would attract attn in any town .
That day they will know if they want to go further.
Funny I've been with a few who knew they wanted to race , till the lid came down , the throttles went forward .LOL
Julie is a sweetie . I just didnt know , still dont what she meant , other than maybe leave pete B out of it over here . ( smile ) |
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| Throttle Up |
Clarification:
I meant this is the mentality that everyone should have. This thread has been very civil and more importantly productive communication. If we all invest in the philosphy "I am a part of the solution" the negativity will be minimized! I love what you all have said on Speedwake, (THANK YOU JEFF!)
I am sorry I did not communicate that though.
Keep up the great positive thoughts! ;)
Julie |
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| KING POO |
| who is jeff please? |
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| shane b |
quote:
Originally posted by KING POO
WHO IS JEFF ? and what has he contributed here?
Jeff ownes Speedwake and he gave us a cival place to post :D |
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| RLW |
Remember the days when the whole Factory One and Two contingent exceeded the total boat count we see at todays events?
Then everyone thought that the sport needed to be reinvented. Now there is Pro Series classes (as there has been in the past). Factory is barely hanging on by a thread. P class guys are thumping their chests that P is NOT a feeder class. P class is not spec racing, more like a party. Not too fast, not too slow, just maintain an average speed. It's a time, distance, speed event. Kind of like a rally on water. Fans don't understand it. I hate it.
I had a P class racer tell me he would have done better with the "slower" prop.
Welcome to the twisted world of P Class racing. |
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| RumRunner |
quote:
Originally posted by RLW
Remember the days when the whole Factory One and Two contingent exceeded the total boat count we see at todays events?
Then everyone thought that the sport needed to be reinvented. Now there is Pro Series classes (as there has been in the past). Factory is barely hanging on by a thread. P class guys are thumping their chests that P is NOT a feeder class. P class is not spec racing, more like a party. Not too fast, not too slow, just maintain an average speed. It's a time, distance, speed event. Kind of like a rally on water. Fans don't understand it. I hate it.
I had a P class racer tell me he would have done better with the "slower" prop.
Welcome to the twisted world of P Class racing.
I'll have to respectfully disagree somewhat with your thoughts. Not the comments from the racers, but the thoughts...
The P Classes are bracket classes just like in many other forms of Motor-Sports. Drag racing, Road Racing, etc. There is not enough interest to have good turn out in an actual spec class (whether it be Factory 1, or 2, A, B, you get my drift) like you have in oval track racing, and there is not enough heritage to have guys want to class race like they'll do at some of the NHRA or IHRA drag races. The P Classes allow a guy to build a boat, or take an old Race boat that no longer fits into a current class, and get to go out learn about racing, have some fun, and not break the bank. If you or anyone else puts together a boat that will run as competitively as possible within the given rules that is still racing. Yea, Yea, all the GPS racing BS... You know what if you can maintain your correct speed while watching a GPS running is 5' seas, around a course hell you deserve to win. If you prop your boat so you won't break out of your speed class then you did you job. No different than someone building an SCCA Road Race car that can out brake his/her competitor, or a Bracket race Drag car that can run 20 MPH faster at the same ET. You want to win at whatever level you can afford to race. If you can do that within the rules, I say kuddos to you.
I believe the P Classes should be a feeder to system, but with the current state of Offshore racing, they aren't going to be. There isn't a strong enough National Circuit at this time that has classes that the racers can grow through.
I hope if the Factory guys go to the 496 engine it may bring Factory 1 & 2 racing back. I'm personally not a fan of the classes, but I think you need to have them to be able to get back to a strong national series. Going to the 496 can do a couple of things the way I see it. First slow the boats down a little, which is going to be safer. This should bring more boat manufactures into racing since more of them offer 496 packages. You may actually get some guys looking at upgrading their pleasure boats at that point. No they won't be competitive, but it will get them out there. In Factory classes you always have the Factory sponsored teams, the independents, and the fillers... I would also think this could be seen as a responsible thing from the insurance industry, and would help get them involved with what is going on.
At this point I think figuring out how to grow a National P Class series is the best option, then which ever National Group comes out on top you could possibly work with them as part of their show.
Any thoughts? |
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| shane b |
| Factory 1 class runs the Merc 496 or Innovation motor and Factory 2 voted as a class to run only the Merc Hp 500 EFI |
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| Flashwave |
I think the 496 helped drive the knife further into Factory 1. The 525/HP3 was a good combination for speed and racers already owned them. This year didn't bring much of a fleet to F1. Probably becuase of the same old multiple engine rules. I would suggest dumping all other engines and go straight for the Black Merc 496. Give F1 another year to grow with the 496 and see what happens.
Never should an engine supplier be able to seal engines. NEVER! |
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| RumRunner |
quote:
Originally posted by Flashwave
I think the 496 helped drive the knife further into Factory 1. The 525/HP3 was a good combination for speed and racers already owned them. This year didn't bring much of a fleet to F1. Probably becuase of the same old multiple engine rules. I would suggest dumping all other engines and go straight for the Black Merc 496. Give F1 another year to grow with the 496 and see what happens.
Never should an engine supplier be able to seal engines. NEVER!
Agree'd I think too many different combinations of power plants hurt the factory classes.
Are you saying outside engine builders re-sealing or what? |
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| Flashwave |
| Sorry I wasn't clear. Innovation should not be supplying engines because they are sealing them. A company should be doing one or the other, but, not both. |
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| RLW |
I honor everyone's opinion. Agree or disagree, we all have an opinion.
Obviously, I enjoy Spec Class racing.
A more even playing field.
And yes, too many engine choices in Factory Racing led to it's demise. At one time there were four engine choices. If anything, the 525 killed the class. It was manageable to create some evenness between the HP500 and the HP500EFI with added weight. The horsepower difference wasn't that much of a spread.
When the 525 arrived it was tougher to even the playing field. The motors were pumping out 550 HP and then some. Then Vortec showed up and that was good if you were a 525 owner. Mercury or GM.
Too bad HP500 owners. Step up and pay the long green or follow us 525 guys around the course.
Anyway, I do understand the need for (dare I say) a Feeder Class. P Class Racing lends itself to that.
There just needs to be more parity.
Especially in P4. |
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| Flashwave |
| We solved the horse power parity problem with weight. Thats was easy. What we were not able to overcome was torgue. You could pickup up 3 seconds in each turn with the additional torque the 525's kicked out. This is the real reason for a single engine program. |
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| NUT JOB |
| Look's like this will be reality shortly guys . :eek: |
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