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OldMagicfloat

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
I have been reading A LOT on what oil to use in my 500HP (Carb)... I do a good amount of idling and the boat does some sitting, then add in the weather in Michigan... My first thoughts were a good Synthetic...

Then I read that "engines with roller lifters used in the pleasure-boat environment have exhibited undesirable wear patterns when synthetic oil is used"
From here about half way down

And thats from Teague......

Next is my issue about about what weight... Lets say i go with synthetics.... is 20w50 to heavy.... can I go with 15w40....HHHRRRMMMMM

Then in reading, it seems water and synthetic oil do not mix, and on a cold start you could be pumping water through the oil pump before oil....

I really would like to avoid the oil debate on brands, but i just need to find the right one... I think im reading to much on this and should just pick one and go...

What are you guys running in the Blue motors, and what do you think about the above...

Thanks
ISNMU
 
I'm very interested in this as well.

Here is what I'm thinking. These motors need the upper end re-done around 200 to 250 hours. They need a complete freshening up around 450 to 550, (At least that's what I've heard).

I've read all the information that ISNMU sent me via PM. About how AMSOIL scars parts less than others, and RP has some sort of Moly in it that can become hard if not changed offen.

So here is my spin on it.

These oil scientest sit around and inspect parts with a microscope after running the crap out of something, or rubbing two pieces of metal together with one drop of oil. They measure the size of scratch in microns and tell how bad .61 is compared to .31.

We are going to rebuild these engines more frequently than your everyday pleasure boater, and we change our oil on a regular basis.

I believe these guys are looking a stuff that is way below the radar screen. We're not dealing with car, or truck engines that we are going to try and drive till the wheels fall off. I take very good care of my engines, and I'm not going to try and run a Marine engine until parts start ejecting out of the engine. I believe the majority of performance marine engines get yanked and rebuilt long before any of these microscopic things can cause a problem.

Just My .02
 
Discussion starter · #4 · (Edited)
HD,

What do you think about teague not recomending synthetic due to the rollers not rolling????

I have a hard time with that article I sent you wrote by amsoil... I discounted just about everything I read in there.

I want to get to the meat and potatoes of this...

1 is syn good for roller motors.. if so, why is teague saying NO!

2 what weight..

3 what about water in synthetic...
 
Man I don't know what to say about that.

The oil making the roller too slick so that it slides down the cam lobe, I just don't buy it. These engines have some pretty heavy springs in them, so I find it hard to imagine. If that's the case, then stay the heck away from AMSOIL, because those guys say they are slickest. :laugher:

What I find strange is the way the guy said it's ok for race applications, but not for pleasure boating. So what do I do then, act like I'm racing all the time and throttle the crap out of my boat to avoid flat rollers on synthetic oil, right!

Take a couple engines apart and find flat spots on the rollers and blame it on the oil. BS!!!!!

Anybody else want to take a swing at this?
 
I read that too - kinda' strange. Seat pressure is usually 130-145lbs and full open pressure mid 300lbs anyway.

One thing we forget - rocker ratio! This also increases the amount of force the lifter is pushed against the cam.

He see's more motors than the rest of us so maybe he does see this?

It is true most synthetics seperate from water quickly and thus makes it more possible for the oil pump pick up to be sitting in water. I haven't seen it but I know of quite a few who have.

What I can tell you is how important oil temperature thermostats are. 1) Oil should be brought up to temp before running hard, 2) Water condensation will not vaporize and leave the system basically until boiling point (210+deg) 3) Fuel dilution will also be kept much lower with correct oil temps.

It seems that regular oil (in our case usually Straight 40) has been well proven to keep things happy under almost all circumstances other than too high or two low of oil temps. The same can be said for synthetics also.

I'm not a 'oil' Guru - just adding my input on what I've seen and heard from many other respectables in the industry.
 
I just got off the phone with Mercrusier. He said they use a 25-40 oil that is like the heavy duty over the road truck oil with additives they have selected for marine apps. He said to watch out for parafin, or wax in the synthetics. They have found filters cloged with these. He also said that multi viscosity oils use a VI additive that breaks down when it gets old are over used. He said that it looks like fiberglass under a microscope. There's that microscope thing again.

Basically, he said anything with an API service of SJ or higher in a straight 40w.

So now what. I guess I'm spending that big money for no freakin reason.

Any experts care to comment on what happens if you go back to fossil based oils after running synthetics. I've heard that's a nono. :dontdoit:
 
Again, some myth.

Regular oil causes certain rubber + other materials to 'swell.'

Seal manufacturers took this into account to keep the seals sealing correctly.

Synthetics then came into existence. They did not have these same 'seal swelling' properties and then guess what? Oil leaks started appearing . Everyone said the engine was 'used to' regular oil and that they weren't used to synthetics.

Anyway, modern engines (since synthetics) have evolved and received different seals that are better with dealing with both types and don't rely on the 'swelling to seal' like the older styles did.

Remember the old 'rope type' rear main seals used on most american V8's (any Pontiac guys here) in the 50's and 60's? Just proving seal technology has and is evolving also.

Therefore, it is okay to switch oil types. Most oil companies have 'Synthetic Blend' which is partial regulaor oil and partial synthetic. The 'Higher Mileage' oils have more additives added that try to 'swell' the seals to keep oil leaks to a minumum.

Again, anybody correct me if I'm wrong - this is what I've seen and heard from many respectables in the business. By no means am I a oil specialist.
 
Diamond Performance said:
Mercuiser/Mercury has a new synthetic oil for their engines, it should be out soon.
Uhhh. What's that say now.

Mecruiser used to say NoWayMan. But then what do they recommend for your outdrive? Mercruiser synthetic. Now comes synthetic in a black bottle. How much does marketing have to do with this?

I've read Teague's comments in Powerboat too. Something strikes me odd, but nobody seems to know anything about it. Every other racing sport around that runs more than 10 seconds per engine change runs synthetic and as much as I've read about building engines and all the latest and greatest whiz bang go fast advice, nothing has ever matched Teague's theorum. Maybe he's onto something. I don't know. He's certainly been there and wore out the t-shirt.

I run synthetic and have for years. The best are Royal Purple, Amsoil, Redline, and Mobil 1. If I didn't run those, it would be a good Diesel engine oil and I'd change it often. It's about the best Dino oil out there and has additives that align pretty closely with how our engines have to live. In particular, the anti-foaming additive. Just my thoughts there.

Here's a place to read and look up stuff. It's not the answer to all answers, but has a lot of good info.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/
 
What about a synthetic additive? Regular weight oil, but throw a can of additive? Thats what I did my first time this spring. Last Sunday me and boys were out on the water and idled for 90% of the day. We put around three hours on the engine. One thing I noticed was much less of a black transom.

Now having a cleaner transom doesn't necessarily mean better oil. But I feel better running it.

Also I read Teaques take in that article and he mentions, roller lifters under 240 lbs of spring rate are likely to be affected. Our HP's are just above that.

hd your purple oil, isn't that synthetic? What did you fine when you pulled down your valve train? Good shape right?
 
Discussion starter · #15 ·
CJ,
I am in full agreement with you... If you are talking about using dino oil...

I would also change my syn that often, but after reading teagues comments, fresher oil would be more slippery causeing the rollers not to roll...???

I like the comment on using diesel oil.... 15w40 is a good oil... But what about using the synthetic diesel oil....5w40??? Are you back in the same boat??? no rolling rollers....
 
Canada Jeff said:


hd your purple oil, isn't that synthetic? What did you fine when you pulled down your valve train? Good shape right?
Engine looked great. Unfortunately, I did not pull any lifters. I looked at them through the valve bay, and even rotated the engine a little to check for scaring on the cam. Nothing. Smooth as a babies arse.

I liked the oil because it did'nt burn. My big thing is burn. If it's burning, then it's getting around the rings and I'm not to crazy about that. The non-synthetics have always burned in my big block chevys.

So now I'm as confused as ever.
 
Okay - roller thing - I think this is what BT may have meant? Roller tips do still 'scrub' against the valve stem. Meaning, they don't always really roll. Was this what he was referring too? Dunno' - I'm not him.

Anyway, I see where we are going here - much farther than any of us know for sure - no oil / chemical guys here - none that have piped in anyway.

I have seen many, many motors apart - abused and well taken care of. Oil changes and oil temperature are probably 99.9% of why some motors are 'clean as a whistle' and why some have busted! Synthetics don't break down as much as conv. oil when subjected to abnormally high oil temps and flow better when cold (given the same weight) + they provide a little more lubricity. When used correctly and maintened correctly, modern conventional oil will + does work extremely well.

Gear oil is almost 100% agreed to around the industries to be better when synthetic. Again, flow better when cold, and handle high temp better with less break down. Remember, no oil pumps, no filters, no coolers, and high viscosity - usually 70W to 140W. Also, there are some (Redline, Amsoil) that make special types to help in high loaded gear cases. Remember, there are no filters here that will trap the additives.

ATF: better when synthetic also. Once trans fluid get's too hot it is junk - must be changed. It does not 'get better after cooling." Synthetic can handle a lot higher heat and lessen the chance of you driving for a year or two on ATF that has lost it's properties. Those that tow and/or plow should think about it!

Ah, I'm leavin. All this talk about oil made me motivated to go change mine again.
 
Discussion starter · #19 · (Edited)
Oil,Oil,Oil

I received this response on this question... Thought it would be good to share it....

Quote

"Here goes.

First we'll talk about conventional multi-vis oils. A straight 40wt conventional oil is pretty much 40wt stock. Simple enough. A 10w-40 conventional oil is NOT a mix of 10wt stock and 40wt stock. Listen closely: it is essentially 10wt stock with a boatload of viscosity enhancers in it. These are long strands of hydrocarbon molecules that "get in the way" of the 10wt stock flowing out of wherever it is. While this sounds scary, it works very very well.

BUT

The long molecules eventually get torn apart over time, leaving the oil thinner than desired. Some applications are easier than others on the long molecules. One application worth noting is a motorcycle, which shares its gearcase and wet clutch lube with its engine lube ('cept Harleys, so don't get in a wad over it). A bike transmission will shred the viscosity enhancers MUCH QUICKER than just about any other application. For this reason, a bike's change interval is more important than a station wagon.

Now, in a big block Chevy, whether it is in a blower boat or a grocery getter, there is no thrashing gearbox to shred the molecules, and no wet clutch to contaminate the lube, so it's not nearly as big of a concern. Theory says, though that it is a noteworthy concern regardless of whether your application is severe or not.

So with conventional multi vis oils, the "narrower" the winter and summer ratings (10w-40 is "10 winter, 40 summer"), the "purer" and more stable the oil will prove to hold its viscosity over time. A 15w-40 is "better" than a 10w-40. Merc's 20w-40 is even better yet.

Synthetic lubes DO use the same practices of using viscosity enhancers where needed, BUT in the case of a syn lube, the high number is a hot equivalent, and the low (Winter) number is a cold equivalent. In many instances (10w-40 syn) there is essentially ONLY 40wt equivalent syn stock with almost no viscosity enhancers at all. This is good stuff. It is possible because synthetics are DRAMATICALLY more "pourable" at low temps. Since the rating system is based on dino oils, the syn oils are all "equivalents" and not actuals. Modern 0w-30 syns DO use enhancers.

Another thing worth noting, is that commercial fleet oils are indeed a stouter and "better" choice. Specifically the conventional Rotella and it's Delo cousins are favorites of over the road fleet operators. As far as it being a "diesel" oil, feel free to check the extensive ratings stamps on the bottle (or jug as it is with that stuff). The API and other certifications will show you that of course it is suitable to run in a gas motor. Many of the consumer oils are processed by using clay in the refining process. This leads to a substantial amount of paraffin left in suspension in the lube. This is a Group 1 oil stock. Rotella and other fleet oils use a different method of refining and will practically eliminate the waxy buildup you find in a high mile motor (especially in the seals and under the valve covers). It;s mostly Group 2 stocks.

Synthetic Blends and many "synthetic" oils use a high grade of conventional stocks called Group 3. The refining method of obtaining these stocks is called "hydrocracking" and delivers a very nice oil stock that more or less performs halfway between Group 1 and Full Syn oils. These are nice oils too, but are not true synthetics. Be aware that Mobil 1 is now formulated in some Group 3 stocks ever since Mobil lost its lawsuit over other mfrs claiming that their Group 3's were full synthetics (can't beat em join em). Red cap Mobil 1 is still full synth.

BUT the Rotella is in many cases a better choice for boat oil (and motorcycle oil). It comes in 15w-40 and is chocked FULL of all the good stuff and the additive and detergent packages are far far superior than what we get in our bottle of consumer oil.

If you want to go all out: RP, Amsoil, Mobil 1 motorcycle oil, Delo synthetic, and Rotella synthetic are all mega oils. Can't go wrong.

As far as viscosity? This was the original question if I recall...

I see no need to run 50wt anything in a motor built to run clearances based on 40wt oil. If you PLAN to build a 50wt motor, and set it up from the ground up for 50wt then fine - otherwise I feel it's a waste. Waste of fuel and horsepower. Size your bearings, lifters, etc. - set your clearances, and such for the hp and temps and then run the correct viscosity. That's my thoughts."

End Quote

I am going to call rotella... I know its a good oil... its all i use in my diesel.... but im thinking Kendall gt40, Valvoline vr 40, or merc's 25w40 will be it...

Merc told me that thier 25w40 is a straght weight but has pour properties of 25 when cold... I wonder if its not a syn blend...
 
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