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Oil Temps Revisited

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#81 ·
I have been searching the net for more on this subject. On the other place there is a thread from '02 involving several high perf builders/runners that for the most part concluded.. that the biggest pan available run 1 or 2 qts low was the best solution. 2 reasons, 1/ the larger capacity of oil 10 12 or 14 qts goes through the heating cycle less often, so it is easier to keep cool. 2/ they run the oil low to keep it away from the crank as much as possible for obvious reasons.

I did some measuring last night and realized that the hardin 28" combo won't fit without major restructuring.

I have decided to go with CFM's choice of separate oil and PS coolers, the PS cooler can go under the engine and a 16" or 18" X 3" oil cooler can go in place of my current combo unit.

if the oil is a little cool (I hope) I can always go with a warmer water t-stat.

This summer I will be looking into getting the biggest capacity steel pan that will fit in the very narrow space I have under the motor.

Yes Kid I have learned a lot and have basically changed my thinking re the correct approach to my problem. I am now thinking that a bigger cooler is a stopgap measure rather than a solution... I am still a fan of your super cooler design though.
 
#82 ·
MH - Sounds like you at least now have peace of mind realizing the path you must follow.

No doubt it's cheaper to do it right {or overkill +} from the get go. Problem is, when ya think you're doing it right, ya find out ya didn't, then ya do it again..and you end up with a used parts bin :dead: .

I think you're right on course with what you've decided to do. Sounds good.

I'll let ya know how the "super cooler" works out :winker:
 
#83 ·
yes, i know what i want to do. Next problem is that the oil coolers that fit in the space have push on hose type ends rather than 1"npt pipe threads. So I either have to cut up some expensive hoses to make the bends I need or keep looking for a cooler with the right fittings.

it never ends :D
 
#84 · (Edited)
Kid,

I have taken the plunge and ordered the TEAGUE offshore oil cooler and a small separate power steering cooler. about $570 for both. I have been doing some further research and this two pass cooler is probably the most efficient for the space I have (it is 23"long).

I already have the Lightning/Eickert cast alum oil pan with windage tray and scrapers. Don't know what else to do. And boating season is close for us down here.

I did find one interesting article in the PowerboatMag/Teague archives. He said that oil temp probe ideal position is in the 3/8 port above the oil filter boss as this measures the oil temp going back into the engine and not what it was when it comes out (oil pan) hope that might be of interest to you. Interestingly, this is where the dyno shop measures oil temp also.

Where do you guys have your oil temp probes?
 
#85 ·
Why would you want to see the cooler oil temp vs the higher oil temp?

Basically seeing the min vs the max?

No comprendo.

Too much heat breaks down oil and can damage seals.

Why would we want to see what the cooler cools the oil to before it get's sent thru the engine and not what the actual temp of the oil is when it goes thru the engine and the falls back into the oil pan.

Yes, the first part of the engine that get's oil will be at the temp from the cooler but that will change very quickly! If there is no way to see what the oil temp actually goes up to than we are defeating the purpose!

If we want to be super critical than we'd put a temp guage in both locations, BUT, the one you should keep your eye on is the one for max temp - the oil after going thru the engine, ie: what fals to the pan.

What comes out is what was just used for lubricating (what the oil actually was at for temp) - what goes in is going to do the lubricating.

Do you take an athlete's blood sample before or after he takes drugs? Both show good info but not really the info you are looking for. Maybe not a good analogy but this has got me going.

I'm always open and looking for new things. Let's hear more to why he may of said this.
 
#86 ·
CFM,

I have my oil temp sender in the oil pan as I was thinking along the same lines that you are.
I just thought that I would throw this idea out there and see what responses I could get.
Rather than cutting and pasting copyright material :rolleyes: here is the link to the BT article http://www.powerboatmagazine.com/teague/archives/2003/10.php

about 3rd reply on that page.
 
#87 ·
Thanks for the link.

It made me sick to my stomach. Either he or me and my mentors are backwards in thinking. I agree with the psi thing. I don't with the cross over and no t-stat - in my waters anyway - and of course the oil temp sensor location.

Arrrggghhh.

We all have different opinions on many things but these are very important. Which way is the right way?

Well, I'd rather something go wrong in my own stuff because of my doing vs someone elses so until I get proved wrong (which is fine, again I don't mind this, I actually like it, that's how we get better) I am going to continue in the direction I am going which, again, is thru what I see in testing and from others that are really Einstein's of engines.

Man, was that article a curve ball!
 
#88 ·
CFM,

it has me wondering also, but for every tech opinion I get, I can find an opposing opinion somewhere. In this case he is Bob Teague.

The other thing on that page was the thing about J-Tubes. When at the dyno, we pulled the J-Tubes out of a marine holley and put in straight tubes. Talk about going from lean to fat. We thought we just had a poor carb, though we suspected that the J-Tubes were changing the air pressure in the Bowls/metering plates. Nice to see that one confirmed.
 
#89 ·
And this is why a dyno should really be used.

Find out issues before they go in a boat!

Man, if I didn't decide to put a guage on for water psi I would have had my engine out of the boat thinking I was an idiot because of so many water leaks!

I never gave two thoughts about the coolant system, I just believed many others in the industry. Okay, I had a few thoughts because I hated to see my temp guage on or under the first line. But that was it.

Then, I couldn't get any coolant or oil temp up on the dyno. I then starting running into the water psi issues and have been trying different things with this since.

Maybe I'll just end up saying screw it - I'll use a crossover and no t-stat - but I won't say this until my testing says this is what has to be - the lesser of all evils.

We'll see.

Remember, theories and thoughts are just that. Fact is only when all testing has been done.

Over and out. Gotta get to my poor little motor. :shocked:
 
#90 ·
Oh, the recirculation pump is used by Merc all the way up to the 800SC. See here:
http://www.mercruiserparts.com/Show...RUISER/809633.R1/16.png&inbr=2046&bnbr=16&bdesc=INTAKE+MANIFOLD+AND+FRONT+COVER

The 900SC and higher motors go to the cross-over system. My guess? Bigger blowers=less room for a recirc pump and these probably do need as much water volume as humanly possible. Consequences? Probably none since they have to be torn down for other stress related issues before the 'running to cool' will cause any issues.

My 02. A quick find that has settled me back down.

Now, it's really over and out for the day.
 
#91 ·
Hey MH,

My oil temp sender is in the remote filter pad. Don't remember if it's before or after the filter, but I think before.

I just read the Teague article. I know BTeague has forgotten more than I will ever know about perf engines. But, I don't completely see the logic. It seems that we should be concerned more about the oil temp as it leaves the engine, as that's what the bearings and other moving parts were just exposed to.

Wait..gonna go read it again.....

Ok I see see his point. He's say'n you want cool oil entering the engine, that makes sense to me. But, it still seems that the temp of the oil coming out would be of more importance, as ultimately, that is what's covering the internals.

Granted, you don't want to go balls to the wall with too cold oil. That's why I eyeball my temp guage and wait until I see 180*+ before I go over 3500 rpms. So I can see BTs point about monitoring oil temp before it enters or, re-enters the engine. But I sure as he!! don't want it 300* when it comes out. That's why I like to see the exit temp.

I gotta go along with Cape Man on this one.

Damm, Now I gotta do some think'n :confused1
 
#92 ·
cfm said:
Oh, the recirculation pump is used by Merc all the way up to the 800SC. See here:
http://www.mercruiserparts.com/Show...RUISER/809633.R1/16.png&inbr=2046&bnbr=16&bdesc=INTAKE+MANIFOLD+AND+FRONT+COVER

The 900SC and higher motors go to the cross-over system. My guess? Bigger blowers=less room for a recirc pump and these probably do need as much water volume as humanly possible. Consequences? Probably none since they have to be torn down for other stress related issues before the 'running to cool' will cause any issues.

My 02. A quick find that has settled me back down.

Now, it's really over and out for the day.
Click to expand...
Boy, that must have really got you going. :D

Are you really gone this time? :D
 
#94 ·
MH,
The thing about the J tubes is interesting. I sent my ZZ automotive carb to Nickersons to have it "marinized". J installs were part of the mods. Nick explained that the existence or non- existence of J's does makes a definite difference on how a carb reacts. I don't remember all of the tech details {carb challenged :unhappy1: } but calibration is way different between marine and auto carbs. You probably know this stuff already, but it was intersting hear about it.

Do you think fatter jets would work in your situation?
 
#95 · (Edited)
Kidnova said:
MH,
The thing about the J tubes is interesting. I sent my ZZ automotive carb to Nickersons to have it "marinized". J installs were part of the mods. Nick explained that the existence or non- existence of J's does makes a definite difference on how a carb reacts. I don't remember all of the tech details {carb challenged :unhappy1: } but calibration is way different between marine and auto carbs. You probably know this stuff already, but it was intersting hear about it.

Do you think fatter jets would work in your situation?
Click to expand...
Kid,

No doubt Nickersons did the job right.

I can set a holley up fairly well if it is just jets/powervalves/air bleeds, but don't really understand the intracate stuff.

It seems there is definately more to marine carbs than I thought. I just don't know where they compensate for the j-tube effect. Is it jets only or different metering plates and or main body?.

The reason we pulled the j-tubes out of my buddys holley on the dyno was that we were up to #100 jets square and the fuel curve was still heading towards lean.
 
#96 ·
Wow, do they make jets bigger than no.100?

I dont know if it's the main body, but all that you mentioned plus. There was quite a thread going on over on OSO about the difference in auto and marine carbs. RumRunner is a carb guru and gave a pretty good explanation. I think he sells Barry Grant carbs. If you go to OSO and do a search I'm sure you'll find the thread. I think it was 3 or 4 weeks ago. It was interesting.
 
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