Powerboat Forums at SpeedWake banner
Cancel
Create thread New Forums

Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmm.

Jump to Latest
11K views 113 replies 20 participants last post by  cfm  
C
#1 · (Edited)
Ever wondered about these 600hp 454's that people have ?


Actually, trying to ask people what they think about these 600HP, 10:1 or under, smaller cammed (than article), being run under 5600-5800 rpm'd..............

.....................454's.

Are they for real ?

Well, here's a 600hp 496 (1/4" stoked 454 crankshaft) that will make you think, hmmmmmmmmmm. Oh, yes , it uses decent air flow parts.

Read it and ponder.........tell me what you think. :bigsmile:

http://www.compcams.com/Community/Articles/Details.asp?ID=-2023343081
 
O
#5 · (Edited)
Not impressed.

Almost 500 cubes and just over 625 hp. Pull the spacer, ya get 615hp. At 6200 RPM!

Cam is way hot (Lift and duration), compression way high, solid roller lifters, massive total timing, on anemic fuel. No friggin way is this boat power.

I didn't see ANYTHING about idle quality or rpm.

I got 580, no spacer, with 9.4 CR, Hydraulic rollers, out of the box heads (like them), I. 637/E.603-- 230/234 @ .050", and a dual plane intake, 850 BG, with 502 CI, at 5500 RPM. And it idled smooth to 400 RPM.

I'd LOVE to use a high lift, long duration cam made for 6200 RPM (another Cstraub cam), to dyno my mill again and see what I would get. No worry about idle quality, adjusting solids, or reversion, 'cause reversion is no issue with a street motor. Betcha equal or greater power.

Betcha WAY greater.

Thanks again, Chris! :winker:

Edited to add: Krist, put the single plane and spacer on and I'm damm close, now!
 
C
#6 ·
simulatedjim said:
10 hp 1 ft lb COOL :D
Click to expand...
That wasn't my intent - Super Sucker test - but kinda funny how this article used one too. Well, not too funny I guess, they are used all the time for that little extra power.

The 1ft/lb was interesting. usually we get 10-15ft/lbs and 10-15hp, but heh, everything's different. I'll still take the gains for short $$$$.
 
C
#7 ·
Stingray69 said:
Not impressed.

Almost 500 cubes and just over 625 hp. Pull the spacer, ya get 615hp. At 6200 RPM!

Cam is way hot (Lift and duration), compression way high, solid roller lifters, massive total timing, on anemic fuel. No friggin way is this boat power.

I didn't see ANYTHING about idle quality or rpm.

I got 580, no spacer, with 9.4 CR, Hydraulic rollers, out of the box heads (like them), I. 637/E.603-- 230/234 @ .050", and a dual plane intake, 850 BG, with 502 CI, at 5500 RPM. And it idled smooth to 400 RPM.

I'd LOVE to use a high lift, long duration cam made for 6200 RPM (another Cstraub cam), to dyno my mill again and see what I would get. No worry about idle quality, adjusting solids, or reversion, 'cause reversion is no issue with a street motor. Betcha equal or greater power.

Betcha WAY greater.

Thanks again, Chris! :winker:

Edited to add: Krist, put the single plane and spacer on and I'm damm close, now!
Click to expand...
Stingray - you are on track.

I wanted people to see what a real dyno test (not jacked) that shows just over 600hp and what kind of engine it took.

Now, forget the 'Hybrid' lifter thing, that was a side part trial thing.

The engine has 496cid's, decent heads, good intake, and good carb.

So, what else did it take to get just over 600hp ?

Big cam:
Way too big for most boats. If you have wet exhaust, then this is not a possibility

Big compression: Has aluminum heads, therefore good pump gas can be used, but..........still over the top for a regular boat motor that may have to fill up with 89 at the docks, if forced too.

RPM: too high for most boats. Most won't won't want to prop for this high rpm.

Remember, HP is a function of RPM. To make more HP you need to be more effecient and/or turn up the rpm.

=======================================

More later.
 
#8 ·
cfm said:
Stingray - you are on track.

I wanted people to see what a real dyno test (not jacked) that shows just over 600hp and what kind of engine it took.

Now, forget the 'Hybrid' lifter thing, that was a side part trial thing.

The engine has 496cid's, decent heads, good intake, and good carb.

So, what else did it take to get just over 600hp ?

Big cam:
Way too big for most boats. If you have wet exhaust, then this is not a possibility

Big compression: Has aluminum heads, therefore good pump gas can be used, but..........still over the top for a regular boat motor that may have to fill up with 89 at the docks, if forced too.

RPM: too high for most boats. Most won't won't want to prop for this high rpm.

Remember, HP is a function of RPM. To make more HP you need to be more effecient and/or turn up the rpm.

=======================================

More later.
Click to expand...
So what you're saying is either I got my combination just right or the dyno I used was optimistic??

Sure, I have a few more cubic inches than that engine, but I made 599 hp at 5600rpm WITHOUT a big cam, WITHOUT high compression WITHOUT aluminum heads and WITHOUT reving the snot out of it :D


Doug

P.S. Do ya think the Super sucker will give me 10 more hp???? shhhh don't tell Mudball :laugher:
 
O
#9 ·
I didn't think this was a comparison of stock HVH Super Sucker vs. CNC 3D-surfaced CFM HVH Super Sucker, from the initial post.

If that was the intent, sorry, but the bigger story is, another dude took an off the shelf cam, stuck it into a hi CR, 500 cube mill, ran the R's to the sky, and came up with what we have been getting for power, albeit at 700 rpm's more. And I bet it idles like crap, at around 1400.

It's sad to watch.
 
C
#11 ·
Again, this has nothing to do with the spacer. That just happened to be in the article.

Ok, last spacer thing - they used the wrong one :shocked: :shocked: :shocked:

Now let's drop the spacer thing. Just put it back in your mind that the Super Suckers work.
 
C
#12 ·
Stingray69 said:
but the bigger story is, another dude took an off the shelf cam, stuck it into a hi CR, 500 cube mill, ran the R's to the sky, and came up with what we have been getting for power, albeit at 700 rpm's more. And I bet it idles like crap, at around 1400.

It's sad to watch.
Click to expand...
Kind of.

Actually, trying to ask people what they think about these 600HP, 10:1 or under, smaller cammed (than article), being run under 5600 rpm'd..............

.....................454's.

Are they for real ? :shocked: :bigsmile:
 
C
#13 ·
Boatally Insane said:
So what you're saying is
Click to expand...
Your boat absolutely flies. It has a killer motor.

You are not a reference to this at all.

Lastly, yes, the Super Sucker will pick up your power. Typically 12-15HP and same for torque.

BTW: A Speedwake member has them on his 113mph Sunsation. :bigsmile: :bigsmile: :shocked: :shocked:
 
C
#16 ·
Sallee-Chevrolet's 502 630hp build. Has even better Victor Junior heads.

The Ultimate Street 502 - P/N SC502US
630 HP @ 5,600 RPM, 605 FT/LBS @ 4,400 RPM
Option Z For Part #12371171 502ci 502 Horsepower Premium Engine Kit
America’s favorite big block is now available with 630 HP. Sallee Chevrolet’s Race Shop picked all the special parts to give this improved version of The Ultimate Street 502 more power, more torque, heavy duty strength, and more reliable performance. All these improvements puts The Ultimate Street 502 back on top of the street 502 engine pack!


THE ULTIMATE STREET 502 TECHNICAL INFORMATION
Horsepower: 630 @ 5,600 RPM
Torque: 605 @ 4,400 RPM
Max. Rec. RPM: 6,000 RPM
Comp. Ratio: 10.2:1
Block: GM P/N 10237292, Cast Iron, Four Bolt Main
Crankshaft: GM P/N 10183723, Forged Steel, 1-Piece Rear Sseal, Externally Ballanced, Nitriated & Cross Drilled.
Connecting Rods: Manley Sportsmaster P/N 14131-8, Forged Aircraft Quality 4340 Material, 8740 Alloy 7/16" (190,000 psi) ARP Cap Screws, Premium Amco Pin Bushings, Profiled, Shot Peened
Pistons: SRP P/N 139518 Forged, 4032 High Silicon Alloy For Tighter Piston To Wall Clearance, Floating Pin, Smooth Dome & Radius Valve Relief
Piston Rings: SRP P/N J100F8-4470-5, File Fit
Camshaft: Crane P/N 168741, Hyd. Roller, Lift (.610” I, .632” E), Duration @ .050” (236° I, 244° E)
Timing Chain: GM P/N 12371053, HD Roller Design
Lifters: Crane P/N 16535-16, Long Travel, Designed For High Lift Camshafts
Cylinder Heads: Edelbrock Victor JR. P/N 6040, CNC, Rectangular Port, 112 cc Combustion Chambers
Intake Valves: 2.25” Stainless Steel, 11/32 Stem
Exhaust Valves: 1.90” Stainless Steel, 11/32”
Valve Springs: Crane P/N 99895-16 Valve Springs, Dual Valve Springs
Rocker Arms: Crower P/N 73605, Stainless Steel 1.7 Ratio
Intake Manifold: Edelbrock P/N 7562, Air Gap
Carburetor: Speed Demon P/N 1563010, 850 CFM, Mechanical Secondaries, Fuel Line Kit P/N 140006
Distributor: MSD P/N 85551 Billet, MSD 8252 Coil, Digital-6 Plus Ignition Control Box.
Starter: GM P/N 9000852, Gear Reduction
Water Pump: Your choice of Long Edelbrock P/N 8851 or Short Edelbrock P/N 8850
Spark Plugs: #4 Rapid Fire
Plug Wires: 8 mm Red Plug Wires
Fuel: 92 Octane with Moroso #65590 octane booster or Racing Fuel Recommended. We can supply the Moroso octane booster.
Oil Pan: Your Choice, Moroso Or Milodon 6 Quart Pan, Some Special Pans Available for 55-57
Valve Cover: P/N 68343, Moroso Fabricated Aluminum, Can Be Substituted For Less Or Equal Value Covers
Damper: Fluidampr, 8” External Balance
Dyno Tested: This Engine Is Tested & Calibrated Before Delivery
Fasteners: ARP Head Bolts, Rocker Studs, and Intake Bolts.
Note: Parts as well as prices and specifications are subject to change. Please call and talk to one of our parts salespersons prior to ordering for the most current information.


THE ULTIMATE STREET 502 DYNO RESULTS
RPM Torque HP RPM Torque HP RPM Torque HP RPM Torque HP
2279 523 227 3200 560 341 4200 599 479 5200 600 594
2400 522 239 3400 564 365 4400 605 507 5400 609 625
2600 537 266 3600 572 392 4600 607 532 5600 595 630
2800 557 297 3800 580 420 4800 612 560 5800 582 642
3000 559 320 4000 596 454 5000 609 580 6000 567 644
 
2
#17 ·
Seems like a lot of decent parts, CR and rpm's for just 625hp.

My old 502 with with iron oval ports, and 8.5:1 made 625hp at 5800rpm.
I did have a solid roller with just a little bit more duration and on a 112.
And for those that don't think big solids can idle , it would idle in gear at 600-700rpm's all day long. Although not recommended because it was just obnouxiously loud thru dry pipes.
 
C
#20 ·
# for # solids idle better than hydraulics. In fact, I have found you can go up 10-15 more degrees on the solid vs hydraulic while getting the same type of idle. :bigsmile:

Just my experience above, BTW.


Sting - Kid has the Ovals and these use the Rectangulars (if i remember correctly)

Shouldn't make too much of a difference though. Kid does have like 9.6:1 compression. Well, he is supposed to anyway.
 
O
#21 ·
And Kid's motor has relatively flat pistons, and 110cc heads, instead of 10.2 pistons and 119cc.

This is getting to be like my wife trying to explain something to me, but talking all around what she is trying to say.

First one was a 496; stroked 454.
Second one was a 509; bored 502.

At this time, might I shortcut to your presumed goal; that of saying that 600 hp 454's CAN'T BE, because we are using lots of good flowing parts with 8.2's, and getting ~600hp?

Yeah, I said wife.

Spill it, we can debate plenty then.
 
C
#23 ·
26scarab said:
CFM,
I didn't know that. I always thought it was the other way around. Great , now I hope I don't run into any idle issues with the new Hyd. roller.
Click to expand...
Yeh, you would think it works the other way with hydraulics bleeding off and such.

But, don't forget:
A solid cam is measured the same as any other.

Advertised duration starts at .004" or .006" (depending on manufacturer)

Solid cam requires a lash clearance - therefore the ramp starts before the lifter thinks of going up. :bigsmile:

Soild typically has more agressive opening/closing rates. Getting the valve open/closed faster within the same measured duration rates TYPICALLY produces more vacuum.

I learned this way back when started to first run solid flat tappets. "Heh, this thing idle's pretty good. :bigsmile: "
 
C
#24 ·
Stingray69 said:

This is getting to be like my wife trying to explain something to me, but talking all around what she is trying to say.

Yeah, I said wife.

Spill it, we can debate plenty then.
Click to expand...
\

Not yet. I wanna hear from you guys. I have theories and want to see if others agree on it.

So, continue or come up with your final answer if you have not given your final answer.

Lay it on the line. :bigsmile:
 
O
#26 · (Edited)
I'm seeing this as 'proportionality' of cubes to hp, or more importantly, tq.

I could see getting 800 hp out of 454. Great for drag strip, but won't last long. But who wants the mannerisms of a hot, small cube motor, when milder, big cube motors are more appropriate in a boat.

Drag boats aside, I'm talking take out the mother-in-law, visit naked drunk fests, etc, user friendly, v-hull, sterndrive boats.

But I have not seen this 454 you speak of, nor do I think that one with 600hp would be much fun in anything other than WFO mode.

NOW, show us the one you have.

Chris, yes. Advertised HP vs Usable HP
 
Powerboat Forums at SpeedWake
posts
921K
members
19K
Since
2002
A forum community dedicated to Powerboat owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about performance, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, maintenance, and more!
Full Forum Listing
Explore Our Forums
General Boating Discussions Powerquest News Articles