A good healthy open debate

OutboardWizard said:

This is Gail from Cocoa Beach, Florida.
Sorry I didn't get to this thread sooner- it's been a busy week.
First, Ralph "The Outboard Wizard" is a BRP (OMC) Evinrude Dealer, Mechanic and Certified BRP/OMC Service Station in Long Island, New York since 1979.

He's been in business since 1979, online presence since about 2000.

Ralph's Primary Shop is located at:
Lindenhurst Outboard Service Inc.
305 E. Montauk Hway.
Lindenhurst NY 11757

Ralph and I work closely together on "ethanol" issues.
My expertise is more in politics, laws, history, science, etc.
Ralph focuses on "ethanol" mechanical stuff, eg. engine effects of ethanol, precautions, repairs, etc.

We've been trying to educate boaters on the truth about ethanol for awhile.
* With necessary precautions and correct information, most boaters should be able to manage using ethanol blend fuels with no major side effects.

In quick summary, most recent problems with ethanol blend gasoline in marine engines is due to:

- 2005/06 Laws that have mandated widespread use within U.S; Plus pump labeling (that alcohol in gas) still not required in all States -
Note: some people don't even realize yet, that they're now using alcohol blend gas in their engines.
- Legal safe content (and all manufacturer warranties) = Max 10% ethanol.
Since ethanol is added at pump (and not monitored closely), several states have been selling gas with dangerous amts' of alcohol - as high as 40% was noted at some pumps in NY, NJ, CT and other locations past year.
- E10 shelf life is only 90-100 days. Will phase-separate (PS)/water-contaminant (WC) under ideal conditions after only 3 months…
- Ethanol (ethyl alcohol) is an excellent "cleanser", "drying-agent", "antifreeze", "solvent", etc. and most important has amazing abilities to absorb large quantities of water.
Now banned, conventional MTBE gasoline blends did not absorb water into fuel, and had a shelf life of well over a year.
- Certain fiberglass tanks (manufactured prior to 1993) can not tolerate alcohol gas-
These older fiberglass tanks will disintegrate/dissolve from alcohol - this dissolved resin material will destroy your engine.
- Similar problems with certain parts (especially plastic and rubber) for some older engines. eg. parts will dry out, melt, degrade, disintegrate etc.
- The cleansing/solvent/drying ability of alcohol (ethanol) will also cleanse and dissolve, rust, dirt and other matter in older (not-properly maintained) engines. This released "gunk" will travel through engine and clog filters, carbs, injectors, etc.

Sorry I'm starting to get carried away writing too much about ethanol's effects and necessary precautions to avoid alcohol fuel related issues in marine engines…

Because of the above and many other (negative) effects of ethanol fuel in marine engines, new products have popped-up during past year, with false claims that they can "fix" or "repair" PS/WC ethanol fuel - Not true.

ONLY FRESH, HIGH QUALITY (E10) GASOLINE with original composition will protect your engine from unnecessary/avoidable damage.

(Keep in mind that gas contains about 300 to 1000 different ingredients/chemicals - ethanol is one single ingredient and once phase-separated there's a lot more than alcohol and water molecules that has been distorted.)

I'll post more on that too- later,

As for our (Ralph and my) intentions/purpose…
lack of knowledge and using risky products could only help (profit) Ralph,
since he "repairs" those engines that have been damaged by alcohol's effects…

Sounded like someone above was unfairly stating Ralph has some hidden profit-making agenda for revealing the truth/facts of these numerous new questionable products…

Like I've told Ralph repeatedly, if someone doesn't want to accept the truth/facts/warnings, that's there problem, you'll fix their engine later and be smiling on the way to the bank…

Example: He has had many foolish customers who don't accept his advice and "refuse" to dispose of PS/WC gas that's in engines he just finished repairing (they don't want to throw away few hundred dollars of gas) - he KNOWS he'll see them again with more engine damage, filter replacement, stalled or stranded road calls (from running on that bad gas) in very near future. They're problem, not his.

Same story for people who insist on using "new" additive products repeatedly, instead of following simple acceptable good fuel management (eg. replacing gas every 2-6 weeks, use water-sep filters, 2+4, etc.)-
They whine and argue about how so and so told them this and that about some new miracle product and how great it is…Fine with us, we don't have the time to debate this nonsense and marketing gimmicks - Waste your money adding E, K, S, and etc. to your marine tank, mess-up your engine (life and performance) - Won't hurt us.
-----------------
I started educating people solely because I was outraged by the lack of EPA and Government warnings/info to the marine public.
(Mandates of 2005-06 to increase distribution of E10)…

EPA and others have warnings, bulletins, research studies over past 10-20 years available online to marine public regarding ethanol, so how come that info is still not known/understood by so many boaters??

While I totally support renewable fuels, including using ethanol (corn, sugar, grass, cellulose or other grains that make alcohol fuel) for environmental and domestic reasons (less dependence on foreign fuels), I feel boaters should be well-informed on how to prevent problems (precautions) and manage E10/E85.

It's solely because of lack of knowledge that so many boaters have experienced problems with E10…
Eg. winter storage rules have changed full vs. empty, since e10 only good for 90 days.
Boaters commonly don't fill-up as frequently as cars (again will increase risks with e10),
Boats live in a water environment, tanks not sealed as well as cars…again causes boat engines greater risk and unnecessary damage.

Recently a portable Alcohol Fuel Test Kit was developed to check percent of alcohol, we both distribute this product. If the laws were improved to protect consumers there would be no need for alcohol fuel test kits.
I'm sure you realize that selling these kits (developed by the FAA/EEA) is not our motivation for education/discussing ethanol.
They sell for only about $25 to 30/each and are re-usable.

If all states required pump labeling (they don't) and if all stations were required to monitor % ethanol added to pump is within legal limit (10 % or lower) there would be NO NEED for alcohol fuel test kits.

In the meantime, I am keeping detailed records of all people (that test fuel) and have found illegal, unsafe amounts (Name, location of pump, date tested/bought, etc.)
It's shocking how many stations continue to sell e10 with amounts as high as 20-40% ethanol.
(Over 10% Illegal and will cause damage and/or performance issues in most engines).

I hope your readers too will notify me of (ethanol engine) problems and stations with illegal amounts.
BTW, Using over 10% alcohol fuel will invalidate ALL major marine manufacturer warranties - Check your owner's manuals, many older engines manuals/warranties state "0" "No" alcohol fuels - and those engines may have parts that need to be replaced before you can safely switchover to E10.
As for those unfortunate people (over 10,000) with fiberglass tanks not designed to withstand alcohol, the solutions aren't easy or cheap -(replace tanks, add second layer/lining, etc.).

Click to expand...

Hi Gail

Do you have a friend named Tracy from Cocoa beach???

this thread reminds me of my first boat. the engine was practically new, but just wouldnt run right. after changing the gas, and fuel filter the motor ran like new. during boating season i run my boat almost daily when i can so bad gas hasnt been a problem. before i put the boat up for the winter i empty the tanks and run the gas in my car. this way no gas wasted, and no bad gas in the spring. the only problem is that on my outboard boat i have to dilute it with not mixed gas. even so it runs fine.

ENGREPS said:

Hi Gail

Do you have a friend named Tracy from Cocoa beach???

Click to expand...

Did you get your roof fixed?????

Well- I am using E-Zorb myself.

I've kept my my opionions to myself all week while others posted speculation. I kept quiet so I could run some tests of my own this week so see about the 'so-called' jelling and the weather around here cooperated perfectly, because the proof is in the pudding as they say.

I have seen what's been posted here and it appears to me as though some people are on a crusade to nix this product and any other products like it that can help out a boater. It's easy for someone to say "drain your fuel tank", but you and I know it's not always easy or convenient to drain your tank.

I also contacted the manufacturer of this product and I read posts on other forum and what I have determined thus far is that the naysayers and posting and reposting speculation that has been posted elsewhere. To my knowledge and in my research I have not found a single person that can attribute any engine damage to this product, NOR can I find any single person who has experinced any jelling of their fuel because of this.

I ran my own test this past week with 40 gallons of fuel left in my own tank that I KNEW was contaminated with water and I mixed in E-Zorb and then moved my boat on it's trailer up and down the driveway about 5 times coming to abrupt halts each time a week ago to give it a chance to mix with the gasoline. Then I left the mixture sit for the week in my tank in sub freezing temperatures for 5 days and pumped out fuel yesterday into a few 5 gallons containers. There was no evidence of any jelling nor was there any evidence of any problem. I then put the 10 gallons into my Mercedes (fuel injected) that was on empty and drove it about 85 miles yesterday and it wan fine.

No jelling, no problems and no sputtering. I will be using E-Zorb religiously every fill up this summer..

I put even more E-Zorb into a contaminated sample this morning and I'm letting it sit outside right now in 22 degree temps. I'll take a picture and movie of it later on today and post it.

here's a shot of my contaminated fuel - notice it's yellow appearance. when I look closely I can see the swirling of the water in the fuel. This fuel was taken directly from my tank and is now sitting outside with E-Zorb in it.

here where i live in canada i dont dump my fuel in the spring but add a litter of methyl-hydrate for the first 2 fills in the spring time to rid the fuel tank of all the water. and second of all i purchace GASOLINE for my boat not blended fuel with alchohol or methanol or whatever other name they give it.
I know a fellow that uses one of these blended fuels in his boat, hes a competant mechanic by trade that instaled a procharger on his boat for this last boating season,3 rebuilds on his engine in the last season would make me be somewhat concerned , personaly in not a fan of prochargers i think they develope to much heat compared to other forms of boosted power. ive read this argument before about blended versus straight gas and i talked to him and asked if he thought that this might be one of the problems using blended fuel, he contends that its not but for me ,,,,,,,,, i will keep on using GASOLINE. There are still a few companies around that make real gas and i will pay the premium on that fuel to keep it in my boat.

ENGREPS said:

Did you get your roof fixed?????

Click to expand...

Hello, don't know anyone named Tracy...Should I?
Nothing wrong with my roof, don't understand the questions - please explain or call me at 631-532-0948
Gail, S. Orlando Ave. Cocoa Beach Florida

Most of us run our boats often enough that "bad gas" is only a problem once a year. (first run in the spring). The rest of the summer the fuel tanks are re-filled regularly.

Would once a year be considered "repeatedly"? Your quote below suggests the problem wouldn't exist under my example.
"but is about the dangers and long term effects of running your engine repeatedly on contaminated gasoline (bad gas)"

Thanks for contributing to the discussion, just trying to define the time line refered to as "repeatedly".

you know....

water has been in fuel for a long time - this is nothing new and water has been mixing with gasoline for years and working it's way through engines when our water seperating filters has not been able to remove it...

all the E-Zorb is now doing is what happened naturally in the past - allowing the water to mix with gas so that it either gets birned in the engine or seperated.

It's somewhat "incedulous" to assume that any boater would not be resistant to good clean fuel, so why even ask? The question does not even merit a response so I will not.

ps: I left E-Zorb treated fuel stand in sub 20 degree temps stand for 2 days and brought it into the garage last night - no jelling... then I dumped it into my car... I had a nice warm ride into work this morning...

gail_alexander said:

Hello, don't know anyone named Tracy...Should I?
Nothing wrong with my roof, don't understand the questions - please explain or call me at 631-532-0948
Gail, S. Orlando Ave. Cocoa Beach Florida

Click to expand...

I know a Gail who lives in Cocoa Beach and thought you might be the Gail I know.

She also is from NY and Cocoa Beach. Small world.

t500hps said:

Most of us run our boats often enough that "bad gas" is only a problem once a year. (first run in the spring). The rest of the summer the fuel tanks are re-filled regularly.

Would once a year be considered "repeatedly"? Your quote below suggests the problem wouldn't exist under my example.
"but is about the dangers and long term effects of running your engine repeatedly on contaminated gasoline (bad gas)"

Thanks for contributing to the discussion, just trying to define the time line refered to as "repeatedly".

Click to expand...

Helppppppp! This board is driving me crazy, I just wrote a long detailed response...it signed me out - I signed in again and it didn't bring me to post my reply - it erased it!!!!
This Happened to me several times over past few weeks on this board.
I don't have time to re-write my entire answer now (a shame) - TWICE TODAY! guess next time I'll type it in word and paste it here so I don't lose anymore of my long (time-consuming) typed replies.

Re-typed answer really quick, (for better one I lost, sorry) is:
You should never have "bad" gas.
PS/WC is preventable.

Storing ethanol blend fuels for over 3 months, I would expect "good" gas to go "bad".
Store empty tank (when buying E10 alcohol gas) so not faced with this decision.

There are many variables that will determine what exact damage will occur if you run on bad gas in spring.
Age, condition and type of engine most important factor.
DI or not? How much bad gas will you run? Is your engine equipped with a water separator filter?
Is engine well lubed, protected from rusting? Are filters new and clean? What's the condition of your carb?etc...
Do you mind stalling? getting stuck? Plan to run it WOT?
etc. etc...
Note: I'm not a mechanic but am very informed about effects bad gas and too much ethanol can cause.
--------
* Fuel system management rules have changed since ethanol. *

Ethanol replaced MTBE (MTBE banned due to groundwater contamination and cancer risks).
Ethanol (alcohol) has properties that MTBE did NOT.

"Conventional" gas of past, with MTBE, did NOT absorb water and stayed stable for years.
Shelf life (under normal atmospheric conditions/humidity) for ethanol blends is 90 -100 days.

Ethanol also has other properties that MTBE did not...eg. alcohol is a solvent, cleanser, de-greaser, antifreeze, drying-agent, etc.

For almost 2 decades research/studies and politics have been planning on switch from MTBE to ethanol, or other environmentally safer oxygenator. (renewable fuel).

eg. fiberglass tanks that decomposed from ethanol's solvent effects were re-designed (since 1993) to now tolerate ethanol alcohol. Double layers, liners, epoxy sealants, etc. solved the problem -
manufacturers knew ethanol was coming, and made many necessary changes to gas-powered motors, over past decade or so...

Same for several plastic or rubber and other parts that although safe in past, do NOT hold-up to alcohol fuel's effects.

(eg. Plastic/rubbers RE-designed so they would not dry-out or disintegrate from alcohol fuels, etc...

Same for installation of water separator filters and sensors, now "standard" factory installed equipment in most new marine engines/outboards.

If you have an older engine and don't know if you have a "water-separator" filter, call Ralph (Outboard Wizard) and he'll let you know if you need to replace. 631-991-4491.

Now since Sept 2006 laws (and earlier laws from eg. Clean Air Act), all states are required to add ethanol to gas for oxygenating.
MTBE is banned everywhere.

"Fuel system management rules" have changed dramatically since ethanol now widespread...eg. EMPTY tank now recommended for extended periods of non-use.

Follow all the new rules, and probably over 90% of the time PS/WC and "bad gas" is preventable.

Personally I would never run my engines on bad gas - it's up to each individual to decide.

I guess in an engine worth below 1000 or so, some are willing to take added risk...In a 15K engine, I believe dumping a few hundred dollars of gas is preferred decision. (Follow precautions and you'll hopefully never be faced with this decision).

Ironically, newer engines (re-designed parts and fuel systems) are better able to withstand bad gas, and too-high levels of ethanol.
---------------------------
Biggest problem in switchover from MTBE to ethanol is that NOT all states require ethanol added "labeling" at pump.

So many boaters don't even realize they're now filling-up with alcohol blend fuels.

****
Check if your state requires ethanol pump labeling here:
http://www.ethanol.org/EthanolHandbook2006.pdf.pdf
****

Second issue/problem is gas stations are not required to carefully monitor that gas pump has fresh fuel, nor are they required to monitor that correct amt. of ethanol was added in. (10% or lower)...
Therefore some unknowingly have bought "bad gas" (old or with over 10% ethanol), and you're risks are much greater.

In the meantime check % ethanol yourself, with portable alcohol fuel test kit - If over 10% (illegal) don't buy it...

BTW, I keep records on stations that have been found to sell gas with illegal amounts of ethanol.
(People who are testing themselves, send me this info)
I'll be sending all this info with more petitions to concerned companies and lawmakers, in future.
(eg. API, EPA, Politicians, etc.)

Although State fuel laws must vary slightly, I believe the basic steps to protect consumers, should fall under Federal laws/mandates/requirements.

There's no valid reason why some states refuse to label when ethanol is added. Also no valid reason why gas stations should not BE REQUIRED to monitor what's in their tanks, that they're selling.

We should not have to just "hope" that gas is fresh with correct amount of ethanol. We certainly pay enough to deserve this assurance/guarantee.

If you agree,
"Federal" Laws should be passed to require all States to have ethanol pump labeling...
and you agree that all stations should be REQUIRED (by law) to carefully check and monitor, (daily) that gas pump contains legal % of ethanol...
Write your locate legislators OR send me your name/address/phone and I'll add you to my current petitions.
Call 631-532-0948 or send email to fueltesters@yahoo.com

If you find "bad gas", please send details and station name/address, too.
Include testing results of percent ethanol content.

When I've discussed abnormal results (over 10%) with station owners, they usually shrug their shoulders or blame the delivery truck driver (in other words, they don't feel they're directly responsible to monitor gas is "good".

One local station owner was very upset (revealed 20% illegal ethanol added, when I checked at pump), and he asked me to call the gas delivery company myself!

Not my job, but hopefully if enough people are reporting this to the appropriate authorities, and lobbying...the laws will change to better protect consumers, in future with ethanol-blend fuels.

--------
When gas tests at pump over 10%, don't buy or use it. If gas looks old, or phase separated, discolored, has sediment, etc; again don't buy it.

Gail

ENGREPS said:

I know a Gail who lives in Cocoa Beach and thought you might be the Gail I know.

She also is from NY and Cocoa Beach. Small world.

Click to expand...

No, I don't think I know her.
Does she have a boat? Does she have kids in schools here (Roosevelt or CBHS) or live near beach?

Alot of people from up North (NY) live around here.
It's a very varied mix of people in CB, includes long-term residents (SURFERS! and more SURFERS),
- newbies like me, and depending on time of years, tons of tourists.
Has a lower median age than most other parts of Florida (eg. residents are not all retirees).

Retirees here are usually younger or more active than other parts of FL I've been to.
Alot of joggers, surfers, boaters, etc.

Also many younger people live here that work at either Kennedy Space center (KSC) or Patricks Air Force Base (satellite beach) and commuters to Orlando.

I'm south of Minuteman Cswy. and 520/528 overlooking beach/Atlantic Ocean, near A1A.

Speedwake said:

by the way - to illustrate the amount of "misinformation" surrounding this product and topic...

hp500efi posted this "This particuliar product has been known and can cause fuel to GEL. This product is an ethanol based emulsifier and not a water remover. "

and gail posted: "
BTW, "jelling" is NOT due to the product you're using."

WHO IS RIGHT?

Click to expand...

Hello-
Please read my 2 previous posts from today...
I considered writing why "jelling" occurs with ethanol fuels, but as I already told you, I'm really not interested in discussing or debating all the different "products" out there in detail (in regards to jelling or other product side-effects/dangers).
I don't have time for anymore top executives calling me (because they're angry, when I publicly post the ethanol truth/facts) who call trying to convince me to recommend their "new" highly profitable "ethanol-fixing" products.

Some products are worse than others, blah blah blah, but the bottom line will always be:
Running on fresh good high-quality gas is the best way to go. (with ethanol).
And if people become more familiar with ethanol's effects and current fuel laws, (including necessary precuations for MARINE engines), ethanol blend fuel issues or inconveniences SHOULD BE minimal.

A few new products recently developed to stabilize or preserve ethanol fuels, show promise. (keep in mind the petroleum/fuel refineries already add numerous SAFE stabilizers and preservatives etc. to maintain gas quality and extend life.

Understanding the added issues/problems posed with marine engines (these engines live in a water environment, plus high humidity summers, gas not replaced as often as cars, boats often left for extended periods of non-use eg. winter,
boat engines made to last much longer than cars eg. owning a 1970's or '80's outboard is much more common than a 70's/80's auto, etc. etc.
Keep in mind very old marine engines were not designed to withstand the effects of alcohol fuels - - Proof?
Check your owner's manual--manuals prior to 1990 almost always advise against all alcohol fuels (including gasahol)...NOW ALL new marine engines list 10% and lower ethanol is ok (they know they have no choice, since that's what is being sold at most public pumps.

As for jelling, maybe in future I'll join in on that discussion, but not particularly relevant to my goals, which are for people to understand precautions and managing ethanol fuels safely.

Especially when you want me to discuss jelling from "Ezorb" or other product I already feel is usually a waste of money.

All these products (like Ezorb) change the chemical structure of original gas - therefore the gas will NEVER return to it's exact original composition (highly tested for quality).

Same goes for any gasoline that has undergone PS/WC (even without added "fixers", like ezorb)-
It will NEVER return to it's exact original (safe) chemical composition.

But I will recommend you try a few simple science experiments with any common household alcohol (whiskey works well or high content alcohol medicinal alcohol)
to better understand the chemical properties and reactions of ethanol (ethyl alcohol) and other alcohols--

EG. - Place cup of whiskey (or other ethyl alcohol) outside from hot to cold temp (or refrig freezer ) and see what happens,
then add some water and see what happens,
shake it up...let settle and see changes.
observe changes such as, jelling, solidifying, change in color, etc.

Also very interesting is how when you MEASURE alcohol and water before and after mixing together,
1+1 does NOT equal 2.
actually it's something like = 2.3
It's because of the chemical reaction (molecular) when alcohol mixes/absorbs with water, the final mixture is greater than what you originally added together, (expands).

This reaction helps some people understand why phase-separated gasoline is "lean fuel" with lower octane, and less energy (power).
Irregardless of the amount of water contamination of gas (which dilutes gas even more), you're still running on (PS) DILUTED gas with a lower octane, when alcohol/gas/water join together.
You have more volume now.

Not sure I explained that clearly, but get a few test tubes or marked containers, and seeing the varying effects of alcohol/water/gas and temperature changes and volume (expansion)- it's very interesting and useful to better understand why ethanol gas is different than non-alcohol conventional MTBE or Lead gas.

On a positive note, Henry Ford's Model T ran well on varying mixtures of alcohol gas -
If it was ok in 1908-1920, it certainly can be ok today, with the knowledge we now have about engines and renewable fuel.

Guess I need to mention once again, that boaters running on "bad gas", will have no negative effects to me personally, and certainly will INCREASE the profits of all the marine mechanics and manufacturers I know.

If after reviewing all the facts and science available, you still believe running on PS/WC gas and using the many "new" (ethanol gas additive, fixing) products is worthwhile/safe,
all I can say is Good Luck.

In summary, whether a product "emulsifies" or "removes water" you're still running on BAD GAS.

And also remember your marine engine warranty will not be valid, if you do NOT follow the manufacturers fuel recommendations.
(which usually includes statements such as, 10% or lower ethanol, specific minimum octanes (usually 87, sometimes 93 for high perf engines, etc.).

No engine warranty says, running on water-contaminated or "altered" fuel is ok.

If the gas producers/refiners had a solution (they don't yet) to extend the life of E10 more, and to prevent water absorption by E10,
they themselves would add that chemical/product also, to the other hundreds of chemicals that are already needed to make E10 gasoline.

Gail

How do I properly dispose of old gas? Will someone take it?

I said I wasn't going to get involved in this "jelling" debate/discussion (I won't, for now)
but just came across a post from Greg D., Vice President of Starbrite/Startron, I thought you might be interested in reading.
The statements below are not mine (gail), although I do agree with alot (not all) of what he's explaining/saying, I especially agree with "possible causes of jelling".

To read his full 1/11/2007 post visit:
http://www.stripersonline.com/surftalk/showthread.php?t=505069&page=6
-------------------------------
Greg, Bluegill said,

"... Startron will reverse gelling in fuel, it certainly does not cause it to happen.
Gelling is a problem in E10 due to the higher water content in the bottom of the tank.
With cold temperatures the water/ethanol layer will thicken and appears to form a gell in the fuel
( if you've ever put vodka in the freezer you'll see it thickens, adding water which can really freeze will cause gel in the fuel) but as said above,
Startron will prevent or reverse gelling.
Emulsifiers which allow more water to bond with the fuel molecules have also been linked to fuel gelling when overdosed or not properly agitiated in the fuel. Again good news, Startron cannot be overdosed nor does it need to be agitated to work. Just pour and go.

(paragraph removed)

Startron helps prevent phase seperation but does not reverse it,
the best remedy for phase seperated fuel is adding new fresh fuel and Startron.
Startron can rejuvinate old stale fuel, that was what it was orginally developed for. It breaks down the gums and resins formed and restores the lost octane.
But it has limits, once fuel is completely varnished then it's done..."
--------------------------------
(visit link above to read entire post from Greg - Starbrite on SurfTalk board).