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NY8739JR said:
Less trees, means less CO2 absorbed which means more CO2 in the air, which means our atmosphear heats up.Does that have a large effect, probably not too big, but it adds up.
Not to mention that all those missing trees are not producing oxygen!

The rain forest situation is one of those things I was referring to when I said there are countries contributing to the overall problem that we in the US have little control over.
 
Discussion starter · #23 ·
jb said:
this seems political in nature.. I am uncomfortable with this thread :laugher: :laugher: :laugher:
You knew it would be political when the first 2 words in the first post are AL GORE ... :(



Yea, I didn`t mean for this thread to evolve into a polar ice cap debate and the deforestation of rain forests. I was just stating the fact that as of August 9, we have yet to hit 100 degrees, here in north TEXAS. So....if the earth is getting hotter........... :confused:
 
It's summer and hot, go figure. Check out the rest of the world before you let the good old USA and our SUV's take all of the blame. China, India, Russia, are all becoming developing industrial countries and have yet to start to change their ways as far as the amount of pollutants they emit.
 
We had a cool period lately, 60 during the night and mid 80's during the day, low humidity.

Found it interesting that they give the historic high and low for each day with the weather report. Two days ago, the historic high was 101, set in 1904!

I thought this global warming was a new thing! :clown:
 
Discussion starter · #32 ·
The date for our all time record high was Aug 10. Hit 118 back in 1981.
I remember that day very well. :unhappy1:

I was 16 yrs old laying a 6" water supply pipe 18 miles across pasture land. What a job !

There was a few times that I thought I was really going to pass out.
 
We've had a cool summer too. Every summer we'll get a few weeks that will be in mid 90's to touching 100.

Not this year so far and as proof check out our few day forecast:

This Afternoon: Decreasing clouds and breezy. Highs: 72-76 with a northwest wind 10-15 mph this afternoon.

Tonight: Mostly clear skies and cool with patchy fog developing overnight. Lows in the mid to upper 40's with a light north wind.

Tuesday: Partly sunny and cooler, highs in the upper 60s to near 70.
And they say that farther north may dip into upper 30's. :confused: :shocked:

Yes, I'm up North but we do usually boil during the summer.

It's cool for me - I'm just a big fat northern hillbilly white boy that melts in heat. :D
 
NY8739JR said:
I think its a VERY complicated issue and we never will really know what is really happening.

But,

Just look at deforestation.


This is from Wikipidea.com

"About half of the mature tropical forests, between 750 to 800 million hectares of the original 1.5 to 1.6 billion hectares that once covered the planet have been felled.[7] The forest loss is already acute in Southeast Asia, the second of the world's great biodiversity hot spots. Much of what remains is in the Amazon basin, where the Amazon Rainforest covered more than 600 million hectares. The forests are being destroyed at an accelerating pace tracking the rapid pace of human population growth. Unless significant measures are taken on a world-wide basis to preserve them, by 2030 there will only be ten percent remaining with another ten percent in a degraded condition. 80 percent will have been lost and with them the irreversible loss of hundreds of thousands of species."

It also states how up to 90% of Rainforest in many countries are gone.

Less trees, means less CO2 absorbed which means more CO2 in the air, which means our atmosphear heats up.


Does that have a large effect, probably not too big, but it adds up.
It amazes me that people (I am not picking on you NY) quote "Wikipedia" as a source of truth. It is fine for research but you need to use other sources to verify anything on there. Anyone can post their own mumbo-jumbo on Wiki as the truth.....
 
Discussion starter · #38 ·
NY8739JR said:
As you can see there are many refrences..

"References
^ a b Sucoff, E. (2003). Deforestation. In Environmental Encyclopedia. (P.g.358-359). Detroit: Gale.
^ http://www.news.ucdavis.edu/special reports/abroad04/ireland/ireland 7.lasso
^ http://www.actionbioscience.org/environment/nilsson.html Do We Have Enough Forests? By Sten Nilsson
^ * Wilson, E.O., 2002, The Future of Life, Vintage ISBN 0-679-76811-4
^ Afghanistan: Environmental crisis looms as conflict goes on
^ Leakey, Richard and Roger Lewin, 1996, The Sixth Extinction : Patterns of Life and the Future of Humankind, Anchor, ISBN 0-385-46809-1
^ Ron Nielsen, The Little Green Handbook: Seven Trends Shaping the Future of Our Planet, Picador, New York (2006) ISBN 978-0312425814
^ International Conference on Reforestation and Environmental Regeneration of Haiti
^ Nigeria: Environmental Profile
^ Rainforest Destruction
^ Rainforest loss shocks Brazil
^ http://atlas.aaas.org/pdf/63-66.pdf Forest Products
^ Destruction of Renewable Resources
^ http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/0608343103v1 Returning forests analyzed with the forest identity
^ Deforestation and forest degradation factors.
^ http://www.aseanenvironment.info/Abstract/41014849.pdf Deforestation and the environmental Kuznets curve:An institutional perspective
^ Tjeerd H. van Andel, Eberhard Zangger, Anne Demitrack, "Land Use and Soil Erosion in Prehistoric and Historical Greece' Journal of Field Archaeology 17.4 (Winter 1990), pp. 379-396
^ In closing The Civilization of the Middle Ages: The Life and Death of a Civilization (1993) pp 564f.
^ Mccann, J.C. (1999).Green land, Brown land, Black land: An environmental history of Africa 1800-1990. Portsmouth, NH: Heinemann
^ Maddox, G.H. (2006). Sub-Saharan Africa: An environmental history. Santabarbara, CA: ABC-CLIO
^ a b c
^ Haileselassie, A. Ethiopia's struggle over land reform. World press Review 51.4 (April 2004):32(2).Expanded Academic ASAP
^ STATISTICS: Ethiopia. Rhett A. Butler, mongabay.com (no date). Retrieved on June 4, 2007.
^
^ What are rainforests?
^ Deforestation in Madagascar
^ American Forest A History of Resiliency and Recovery United States Forest Service
^ United Nations (2005) "Global Forest Resources Assessment"
^ U.S. Department of Agriculture "Forests on the Edge - Housing Development on America's Private Forests" (2005) http://www.fs.fed.us/projects/fote/reports/fote-6-9-05.pdf Retrieved Nov. 19 2006
^ THE DODO WENT EXTINCT (AND OTHER ECOLOGICAL MYTHS) Stuart L. Pimm
^ Macnally, R, Ballinger, A and Horrocks, G. (2002) Habitat change in River Red Gum Floodplains: Depletion of Fallen Timber and Impacts on Biodiversity. Victorian Naturalis, Volume 119(4). Pp. 107-113.
^ NRE 2002 Forest Management Plan for the Mid-Murray Forest Management Area.
^ Diamond, Jared Collapse: How Societies Choose To Fail or Survive; Viking Press 2004, pages 301-302
^ Diamond, Collapse, pages 320-331
^ No Man's Garden Daniel B. Botkin p 246-247
^ The Jewish National Fund: How the Land Was ‘Redeemed’

[edit] General references
BBC TV series 2005 on the history of geological factors shaping human history
A Natural History of Europe - 2005 co-production including BBC and ZDF
Whitney, Gordon G. 1996. From Coastal Wilderness to Fruited Plain : A History of Environmental Change in Temperate North America from 1500 to the Present. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0-521-57658-X
Williams, Michael. 2003. Deforesting the Earth. University of Chicago Press, Chicago. ISBN 0-226-89926-8
Wunder, Sven. 2000. The Economics of Deforestation: The Example of Ecuador. Macmillan Press, London. ISBN 0-333-73146-8
FAO / CIFOR report. Forests and Floods: Drowning in Fiction or Thriving on Facts?

[edit] Ethiopia deforestation references
Parry, J. Appropriate technology: Dec 2003: 30, 4: ABI/INFORM Global p.g.38.
Hillstrom, K & Hillstrom, C.(2003).Africa and the Middle east. A continental Overview of Environmental Issues. Santabarbara, CA: ABC CLIO.
Williams, M.(2006).Deforesting the earth: From prehistory to global crisis: An Abridgment. Chicago: The university of Chicago press.
Mccann. J.C.(1990).A Great Agrarian cycle? Productivity in Highland Ethiopia, 1900 To 1987.journal of Interdisciplinary History, xx: 3,389-416.Retrieved November 18,2006, from JSTOR database.
Parry, J (2003). Tree choppers become tree planters. Appropriate Technology, 30(4), 38-39. Retrieved November 22, 2006, from ABI/INFORM Global database. (Document ID: 538367341). "
"

Well, I got to the 2nd sentence --- then I got a HUGE freakin headache......

I can clearly see what is written in front of me, but in my mind all I`m getting is BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH ... :D
 
And here's one opinion that claims all the horse hocky about global warming is missing the real reason! Enjoy!

published in The Stanford Review, 2/15/2005

In late January, a spate of alarming global-warming reports hit the newspapers. The International Climate Change Taskforce warned that warming is likely to hit a “point of no return” within ten years. The World Wildlife Fund also warned of imminent climate “tipping.” Climateprediction.net announced that, by testing a wider variety of initial conditions than other climate modelers, it had arrived at a more radical range of warming predictions.

All of these studies employ the classic ruse of advocacy statistics: they omit key explanatory variables, so that explanatory power gets misattributed to those explanatory variables that are included. The variable that these studies leave out is the solar-magnetic flux. As a result, the warming caused by high levels of solar-wind over the last half-century gets misattributed to greenhouse gases. This exaggerated greenhouse warming effect then gets projected forward into trumped-up predictions of imminent catastrophe if human production of greenhouse gases is not drastically curtailed.

Sunspots and climate

Correlation between sunspot activity and cloudless skies has been observed for over a century. It is also known that the Little Ice Age coincided with a sunspot minimum. What has been a mystery until recently is the mechanisms by which solar activity might affect climate. In the last decade, scientists have finally begun to solve this riddle. Solar flares generate storms of solar-magnetic flux that partially shield the Earth from cosmic radiation. Evidence suggests that this cosmic radiation promotes cloud formation, either by ionizing the atmosphere, or by affecting the atmosphere’s electrical circuit. Thus high levels of solar wind have the effect of blowing away the cloud cover, giving the Earth a sunburn. Add that solar activity has been very high since the 1940's, and the slight global warming observed since the mid 70's could easily be due to this effect.

None of the global warming alarmists take this effect into account. All of the recent alarmist studies are based on the GCMs (General Circulation Models) employed by the IPCC (the International Panel on Climate Change). These IPCC GCMs have never included the effects of cosmic rays on cloud formation. Back in 1996, at the time of the IPCC’s Second Assessment Report, this omission was marginally tenable. Sunspots generate a slight increase in solar luminosity (the relatively cool spots are surrounded by super-hot “faculae”) but this increase in radiance is not enough to create significant global warming. The correlation between sunspots and cloudiness was also known, but since no one had any idea what the causal link might be, they did not built it into their models.

The situation had changed drastically by 2001, when the IPCC’s Third Assessment Report came out. By then the cosmic ray theory had been formulated and evidenced and could be modeled. There were still some difficulties with the theory. In particular, direct measurement of the effect of cosmic rays on cloudiness was complicated by volcanic activity and other influences on cloud formation, but evidence of the long term correlation between cosmic radiation and climate was piling up impressively. In sum, the mechanism was strongly evidenced, but the available correlations were to the output of the climate models (global climate), not to the inputs that drive the models (the amount of solar energy getting reflected back into space by cloud cover).

The scientific thing to do in this circumstance is go with the best available estimate of the relation between solar-flux and the Earth’s reflectivity, then vary the parameters of the relation looking the model specification that best fits the historical temperature data. Instead, the IPCC just continued to omit solar-magnetic effects, calling them “unproven” (6.11.2.2). This from a climate-prediction enterprise that is nothing but speculation from top to bottom. The entire enterprise is driven by best estimates, but here a strongly evidenced key determinant of global climate was left out entirely. No mention was even made of how failing to account for solar-magnetic warming effects causes any such effects to be misattributed to greenhouse warming.

Environmental religion

The fact is, global warming alarmists are not scientists, they are propagandists. Instead of trying to incorporate solar-magnetic effects into their models, the alarmists regard the solar-magnetic theory of warming as a competitor to their preferred greenhouse gas theory. As evidence for the impact of cosmic radiation on clouds continues to roll in, the alarmists are still concocting excuses to ignore this mechanism that undercuts their preferred conclusions.

NASA climatologist Gavin Schmidt recently justified leaving cosmic radiation out of NASA models on the grounds that the effect is not needed. “[T]here is no obvious need for ‘new’ or unknown physics to explain what [is] going on,” he explains to science fiction writer Jerry Pournelle (at Pournelle’s website). Earth to NASA: it isn’t enough to tweak your model to fit the historical temperature record. You have to fit ALL the data, including the evidence that cosmic radiation produces cloud cover. If you leave out a real effect, your model is WRONG. Warming that ought to be attributed to solar activity gets misattributed to greenhouse gases, and whatever predictions you make on the basis of those exaggerated warming effects are lies.

These lies are intentional. The goal is to have a grounds for demanding the curtailment of human activity. That is the founding stone of environmental religion. Environmentalists see man as displacing nature, and in this contest, they side with nature. As the self-appointed representatives of a natural world that cannot speak for itself, they see all human impacts as by definition bad, and the interdiction of human impacts as necessarily good, regardless of whether the pretext for curtailing human activity is honest or dishonest.

Gavin Schmidt’s rejection of proper scientific principles is just one example. In the sixties and early seventies, when global temperatures seemed to be falling, Stanford climatologist Stephen Schneider claimed that fossil fuel burning was causing global cooling and needed to be curtailed. When temperatures started rising, he switched to claiming that that fossil fuel burning is causing global warming, and needs to be curtailed. If sunspot activity falls off and cooling returns, he will presumably again claim that human activity is causing cooling, and needs to be curtailed. Schneider seems to be starting with his preferred conclusion (human impact bad), then picking and choosing from the available reason and evidence to fashion the best case he can for this conclusion.

This kind of behavior is why we see today a continued refusal by the global warming alarmists to incorporate well documented solar-magnetic effects into their models. If the implications of honest science do not condemn human impact, these opponents of human impact will find excuses to reject honest science.

Rational environmentalism

Those who study the cyclical patterns in sunspot activity predict a solar minimum by 2030. There is lots of evidence that if such a minimum does occur, increased cloud cover will block the sun and cool the Earth. In this case, the slightly warmer jacket of greenhouse gases created by fossil fuel burning will turn out to be a good thing, not a bad thing. More generally, until we can predict the course of natural variation, we have no idea whether a particular human impact will turn out to be good or bad.

There are valid reasons to limit fossil fuel consumption, but they have nothing to do with global warming. One is to limit pollution. Another is to conserve limited resources. Most important is strategic national interest. Our economy is terribly vulnerable to any kink in the oil supply pipeline. This vulnerability can be reduced by taking four steps. A hefty tax on fossil fuels (with all proceeds returned to taxpayers in the form of lower other taxes) would reduce demand, driving the world price of oil down to the cost of producing the easiest to produce oil. This would create a net gain for our economy while at the same time taking the stress off of production and distribution facilities. We should also fill the strategic oil reserve and we should drill and cap enough domestic reserves to be able to make up any temporary shortfall in imports. Lastly, we should switch over to nuclear generation.

Any decade now, breakthroughs in solar electric generation and in battery technology are likely to place much of our energy production and distribution beyond the reach of any kink in oil supplies. Until then, reducing our vulnerability to supply kinks will require substantial reductions in fossil fuel consumption. It is possible that the associated reduction in greenhouse gas emissions will send us into an ice-age that higher levels of emissions would forestall, but we don’t yet understand climate science well enough to proceed sensibly on this kind of concern. That would be as nutty as paying a high price today in order to gamble that we will want to be wearing a slightly lighter jacket of greenhouse gases fifty or a hundred or two hundred years from now, when we have no idea where natural temperature variation is headed.

At some point, climate science may have clear prescriptions to offer, but not today. The best we can do now is to strive for rapid economic, scientific and technological advance, in order to best be able to deal with whatever threats await.
 
Who chooses the references and stats for an entry?

Could it be, might it be, is it, the entities expounding on their idea of the truth or facts?????

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

It is not all rubbish, but Wiki should not be used alone as a source.

Here are two quotes from Wikipedia's own page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:About

"With rare exceptions, its articles can be edited by anyone with access to the Internet (WHICH OF COURSE WE ALL KNOW AL GORE INVENTED), simply by clicking the edit this page link."

"Because Wikipedia is an ongoing work to which, in principle, anybody can contribute, it differs from a paper-based reference source in important ways. In particular, older articles tend to be more comprehensive and balanced, while newer articles may still contain significant misinformation, unencyclopedic content, or vandalism. Users need to be aware of this to obtain valid information and avoid misinformation that has been recently added and not yet removed"
 
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