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In your opinion - is engine building a science or black art?

  • It's a Science

    Votes: 64 35.2%
  • It's a Black Art

    Votes: 11 6.0%
  • It's some combination of art and science

    Votes: 109 59.9%

In your opinion - is engine building a science or black art?

4K views 22 replies 15 participants last post by  roccard 
#1 ·
In your opinion - is engine building a science or black art?

Do you consider "reliable" high performance engine building to be a science or a "Black Art".

By Science I mean - follow the basic rules, torque as per specs, clearances as per specs, etc...etc... there's no mystery to it...

or do you think the "successful engine builders" - the folks who build the engines that don't seem to come apart have some black magic up their sleeves - secrets that they don't share with anyone else - their own unique ways of building engines that the garage mechanic engine cannot duplicate or can the garage mechanic engine builder build an engine just as reliable by adhering to the "specs" ????
 
#2 ·
The principles of logic tell me it is a science, I.E. a + b will always equal c. But then If that were the case, wouldn't all races end in a dead even finish? All boats would go the same speed given the same hardware ? Furthermore, why don't mechanics all have the same answer to the same Q ? It drives me nutz, not being particularly mechanical, that it all seems so subjective!
 
#3 ·
There are those who finish first in racing: need to be dependable enough (science) and the fastest (science and black art.)

Anyway I like the builders whom -

Not being afraid to use high quality parts. High quality engine parts are much more $$$ than inferior ones. A definite case of you get what you pay for. This is parts - not labor.

Furthermore, a builder trying to sell you on price is more likely providing you with cheaper parts.

A question I bring up a lot when talking to builders I haven't met before is something like 'what was one of your bigger screw ups and how did it turn out ?'

I think it's a great question for a few reasons:

1) Everyone screws up - so let's see who admits it
2) Attitude about it. Mad at you for asking - I get shaky. If they are at ease about it and are actually excited to tell you the story and what they did to fix the situation and how happy the customer then was - the better I feel.

Of course, machinery, what's done in house vs contracted out, referalls, yada, yada, yada, yada.

Basically, I'm more for open minded builders that know what the heck they are doing and sure of themselves enough to admit if they screwed up or you screwed up.
:laugher: :laugher: :laugher: :laugher:
 
#4 ·
BTW: I think tuning has way more to do with reliability issues than anything.

Many good engines are shipped out the door with no induction or ignition system and left to the installer.

Many good engines (mechanically) get shipped with an induction system and ignition installed without being calibrated.

May be somewhat okay for an old car, but definately not for a boat.

These 'good engines' become very 'bad engines' quickly.

Knowledge given to the customer makes for a better engine also.

' You must use this octane'
' You must use an oil temp guage to make sure your temps .............'
'You need to use this xxxx or this xxx exhaust system for this motor'
'You need to change the oil every........'
'You must change xxxx every season'

So on and so on and so forth and so forth.

I feel the more a person knows about your stuff the better of a customer they are.

They should always be encouraged to call if they think they have an issue.
 
#7 · (Edited)
I personally think that if it is longevety then it is just a mater of GOOD parts and the proper methods of assembly ( clearences and so on )
If it a matter of more HP from the same cubes than it is an art of basic science.
Just the right cam - piston dome shape-compression-head porting-headers-intake design and so on and so on.
 
#8 ·
I consider myself a "good" engine builder. I built my first engine in 1979 at the age of 14. It was a 283 Chevy and it held up great.
I`ve made a few mistakes over the years, but I have had a great amount of success too.
What CFM was saying about how a good engine can turn bad after it leaves the builder`s shop is oh so true.
I built an engine for my own boat last year. I selected excellent parts and had quality machine work done and I assembled it myself. I built what I considered a "near bullit-proof" engine. Last weekend it got hurt bad, due to a weak fuel pump (lean condition).
The same thing would have happened to a Sterling or Eikhert or whoever engine............
I believe it is a combo of science and black art. I know a few things that a lot of guys don`t know and I`m sure there is plenty more that I can learn.
You must understand the science to be a great engine builder, then throw in your bag of tricks....
 
#11 ·
nice replies

In response to all of your replies I agree. Knowledge and experience is the key along with knowledge passed on to the consumer. When our engines leave here EVERYONE is dyno run and ships with a setup sheet to follow even though it was tuned here. Even with that things go wrong once in a great while, but we stand behind EVERYONE that goes out the door which is better than a 3/6/9/12 month warranty. Warranties are for the guys like jasper who put so many out so fast there is a good chance sooner or later a few or more will be bad we believe build them one at a time a true quality and reliability will be the result.
 
#12 ·
Re: nice replies

roccard said:
In response to all of your replies I agree. Knowledge and experience is the key along with knowledge passed on to the consumer. When our engines leave here EVERYONE is dyno run and ships with a setup sheet to follow even though it was tuned here. Even with that things go wrong once in a great while, but we stand behind EVERYONE that goes out the door which is better than a 3/6/9/12 month warranty. Warranties are for the guys like jasper who put so many out so fast there is a good chance sooner or later a few or more will be bad we believe build them one at a time a true quality and reliability will be the result.
when you say "stand behind" - what does that mean?
 
#15 · (Edited)
Just having my engine rebuilt (only have 15 hours on it) i must chime in on this 1, i would have to say 90% science and 10% black art . My engine builder LAM engines in Kenosha Wisc. is in his late 30'2 has been building engines since he was 12 w/ his dad who passed away , they build mostly circle track ,& drag,has really gotten into marine the last 5 years , its is just awesome to talk engines w/ russ ,the info he has is unbelivable , makes you want to go home a read every book there is on engines!
 
#16 ·
art science

In addition picking part combos to fit, doing final machining on every part and blueprinting the whole engine before it is assembled means ALOT. Even using the best sutff available we still check rod journals and hone as needed, check for deck slope,ballance rods ect. Where some guys assemble the parts out of the box, which is fine to a point but paying attention to all of the small details is why a blueprinted engine dynoed next to an identical engine of the same parts assembled out of the box may have as much as a 50-75 hp difference along with much less stress and better longevity.
 
#19 ·
It is like anything else in life, a series of trials and errors. The basis of science is to have learned from your mistakes and get better. Therefore, science is based on research, making improvements as a standard and continuing to strive for repeatability and dependability.

Referring to it a black art would be relying on luck to get you there and right the first time. Limited repeatability.
 
#20 ·
Good thread - maybe you guys in the know can help:

My 575SCi's have 289 hours on them and run great. The don't consume oil. This winter I am going to send the blowers off to the Blower Shop for a check out / rebuild. (Good idea? Blower Shop good?)

The motors have been run w/ synthetic from day one and changed every 2- 30 hours religiously. I have had the motors since 169 hours and I don NOT run them hard. 95% I am running between 3000 and 4000 RPMs. The rest of the time is no wake speed and maybe a short blast to WOT.

I was thinking it would be a good idea to pull the heads and have the upper end freshened up. (good idea?)
I am not looking to mod this or that for more power. Instead I want them put back to Merc Spec or better and the best parts used for ultimate reliability.

Now, am I on the right track??? Should this be done or not?
I can not find anyone around here that seems to up to the task and /or my standards. There are a few folks, but there are always some negative remarks that so & so got cheated or they won't back their work- etc.
Thus I may have to send the heads out. Who is up to what I want - and will give me 100% straight talk w/o lining their pockets????
 
#21 ·
BillR said:
Good thread - maybe you guys in the know can help:

My 575SCi's have 289 hours on them and run great. The don't consume oil. This winter I am going to send the blowers off to the Blower Shop for a check out / rebuild. (Good idea? Blower Shop good?)

The motors have been run w/ synthetic from day one and changed every 2- 30 hours religiously. I have had the motors since 169 hours and I don NOT run them hard. 95% I am running between 3000 and 4000 RPMs. The rest of the time is no wake speed and maybe a short blast to WOT.

I was thinking it would be a good idea to pull the heads and have the upper end freshened up. (good idea?)
I am not looking to mod this or that for more power. Instead I want them put back to Merc Spec or better and the best parts used for ultimate reliability.

Now, am I on the right track??? Should this be done or not?
I can not find anyone around here that seems to up to the task and /or my standards. There are a few folks, but there are always some negative remarks that so & so got cheated or they won't back their work- etc.
Thus I may have to send the heads out. Who is up to what I want - and will give me 100% straight talk w/o lining their pockets????
Bill, I think you're on the right track. Your should contact Mike at Roccard in Pennsylvania or consider Joey Griffin who is rebuilding my motors. He just redid my friends 575SC's.

http://www.roccardmarineengines.com/
 
#22 ·
I would probably try to get the blowers done locally. Blower Shop has been outrageous on their rebuild costs. Cheaper to buy new in a couple cases...maybe their hidden agenda? Personally I would look for an engine builder with experience, a proven track record, in house dyno, ideally in house machine shop and ask for references. :)
 
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